posted
Here's where I come out after going through the exchanges on this thread and the extended reading I've done about TM during the process. This is my final post on this thread - - unless some new angle for discussion emerges.
Gratitudes to Pauline, soma, w.c. and others who've participated in this discussion.
1. Regular TM practice has been shown to have many health benefits; a few studies have documented negative side-effects as well.
2. TM can help to quiet the mind, thus preparing one for deeper relational prayer (as Pauline has noted). Of course, for many, the quieter mind is sufficient reward, and as there is nothing in the method itself to engage one relationally with one's "Higher Power," that is as far as it goes.
3. Mahesh Yogi's vast body of knowledge and teaching about TM practice is a help to many in using the method wisely.
4. Mahesh Yogi's TM outreach to the West has contributed to an awakening of interest in contemplative spirituality in Christendom (along with the Vatican Council II, Zen missionaries, pentecostalism, and the writings of Thomas Merton, which pre-dated Mahesh Yogi's coming to the West by at least 15 years.)
- That's the positive, and it could be affirmed equally for regular practice of mantra meditation, including something like #3, if presented in a non-religious context.
5. TM advertises itself as a non-religious approach to stress relief, clarity of consciousness, creativity, etc. This is false advertising. TM is deeply rooted in Hindu assumptions and makes liberal use of Hindu terminology and ideas. U.S. Courts have ruled that this religious perspective of TM disqualifies it from being taught in public school health classes.
6. Additionally, TM training includes a dedication service to Mahesh Yogi's guru, and the Hindu mantra includes Sanskrit names for various Hindu deities (supposedly helpful spirit-entities). This is not advertised anywhere in the publicity for TM training, which (as #5 notes) promotes TM as non-religious. This is dishonest and deceptive, but Mahesh Yogi knows very well that if he mentioned this, many Christians and people of non-Hindu faith traditions would not attend TM training.
7. TM is exorbitantly expensive -- generally over $1,000 a day. The rationale given by Mahesh Yogi is that Westerners value more something they pay for. Perhaps, but there's no doubt that these fees have helped to fund his financial empire. Comparing his wealth to that of the Church is disingenuous, as popes, bishops and priests do not own the Church's resources; the Christian community does. - The notion that Mahesh Yogi came to bring peace and heightened consciousness to the West is belied by his fees, as the vast majority of poor people (who could use such peace the most) are excluded from the training by the pricing scheme.
8. Mahesh Yogi's teaching presumes an impersonal deity whose consciousness one can "tap into" using TM. This implies a monistic, pantheistic metaphysics, which is at odds with what Christianity affirms about the nature of things. At best, what Mahesh Yogi "taps into" is a deeper realm of the human spirit itself.
9. The exposure to Hindu teaching and the use of Hindu mantras that invoke Hindu deities could seriously compromise a Christian's faith and spiritual practice if s/he is not aware of what's going on. There is a pedagogy implicit in the non-relational technique itself that draws one away from dialogical engagement with the personal God affirmed in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Additionally, there is the danger that in using mantras that invoke Hindu deities, such entities actually become attached to one's consciousness, for better or for worse.
10. It is debatable that TM is part of a cult centered on Mahesh Yogi. Partly, this depends on how one defines "cult." As we've noted in these discussions, and as one will find on other boards around the Internet, those who like TM and Mahesh Yogi seem to find it difficult to apply the same standards of critical reflection for TM and Mahesh Yogi that they do to Christianity, American politics, etc. Indeed, it almost seems taboo to express any negative sentiment about TM or Mahesh Yogi. That is very cult-like.
[ February 04, 2006, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
As noted earlier this "evaluation of TM" was Phils idea because I have practiced it for a long time and happened to mention it. He's had several frieinds loose interest in Catholicism and seems to want to blame TM for that rather then looking where he needs to...at the teaching of the Church, the very thing he represents. Contrary to his Catholic Creed,( I believe in ONE God) he apparently allows enough belief in Hindu dieties to be afraid of them, and seems believe they are in part to blame for Catholicims dwindling numbers.
The question he should be asking and is maybe afraid to ask is WHY is Cathlocism not working for so many,? Why do people leave and why they are having the problems they are in the Church? And what can Phil do about it?
When Maharishi saw what was happening in the world around him, and in the West with the young people, he came up with the best solution he could based on what God had given him and he put is heart and soul into doing something about it. Contrary to Phils belief Maharishi and many Hindus have "relational" dialogue with God...He didn't criticize whe western religions for failing or not properly guiding the young...because that wouldn't have helped It is NOT a very good spiritual thing to do. It would have only caused more harm.
People who are secure in their own spiritual practices and beliefs are not in fear and don't feel the need to tear down or criticize the spiritual teachings, practices or choices of others. They trust that God is in control and all will find their way....They focus ALL their attention on doing what they know needs to be done with in the relgion of their choosing.
Strong Catholics need to figure out how to give all Catholics a good experience with the Church..Church should be a joy after all..a place where we want to be...
The holes are coming from the inside out, not the outside in....And they are HUGE. One thread on clergy abuse in 4 years is harldy addressing a very serious problem, one that has most likely been going on for centuries.
Below are my response to Phils summary:
1. Regular TM practice has been shown to have many health benefits; a few studies have documented negative side-effects as well.
PAULINE: Kind of like anything else , eh Phil? And then we'd have to rule out other factors like daily habits of the practioner, or the quality of their practice, or the biasness of the studies themselves? Anytime you start purifying the unconscious, and the body you are bound to have some side affects ranging from indidual to individual .
2. TM can help to quiet the mind, thus preparing one for deeper relational prayer (as Pauline has noted). Of course, for many, the quieter mind is sufficient reward, and as there is nothing in the method itself to engage one relationally with one's "Higher Power," that is as far as it goes.
PAULINE: Yes, prayer is an ndividual choice. Those that didn't pray, find they do get more spiritually inclined and atheists usually begin believing in., or at least experiencing God in their life...a sense of grace and being more connected to life and others.
3. Mahesh Yogi's vast body of knowledge and teaching about TM practice is a help to many in using the method wisely.
PAULINE: Yes this is true...very important to follow instructions and hopefully attend at least one residence course...That is where you there is dramatic shift in perception..things that used to bother one, just seem to roll off, like water on a duck's back.
4. Mahesh Yogi's TM outreach to the West has contributed to an awakening of interest in contemplative spirituality in Christendom (along with the Vatican Council II, Zen missionaries, Pentecostalism, and the writings of Thomas Merton, which pre-dated Mahesh Yogi's coming to the West by at least 15 years.)
PAULINE: IMO,Maharishi had a huge impact on consciousness, much bigger then Phil seems to what to admit. He came to the West in 1956- 57, and TM grew VERY quickly. He has also done A LOT to inspire research on consciousness, and the mind-body-soul connection.
a, Vatican Council II, from Wikipedi The general sessions of the Council were held in the fall of four successive years in four periods 1962–1965. b. Zen missionaries, couldn't find dates on this. But astrologically it wouldn't surprise me if that came at the same time. from an astrological perspective.
c. Pentecostalism, from wikipedia:
From the LATE 1950s onwards, the Charismatic movement, which was to a large extent inspired and influenced by Pentecostalism, began to flourish in the mainline Protestant denominations, as well as the Roman Catholic church. d. and the writings of Thomas Merton, which pre-dated Mahesh Yogi's coming to the West by at least 15 years
Maharishi came to the West in 1956. Mertons First book,at age 31, no less, Seven Storey Mountain was published in 1948.
That's only 6 years. Just drawing attention to how easy it is to use faulty " data" to support ones beliefs
More reflectively, Merton penned an introduction to a 1966 Japanese edition of Seven Storey Mountain saying "Perhaps if I were to attempt this book today, it would be written differently. Who knows? But it was written when I was still quite young, and that is the way it remains. The story no longer belongs to me...."
Now, see., what I wonder about is, if the thousands of people learning TM but alos thousands who were spending 6 to 8 hours a day "rounding"(meditating) during that time had anything to do with his feeling that way? It's possible you know...People were ging through BIG changes in the early days of the movement
PHIL: That's the positive, and it could be affirmed equally for regular practice of mantra meditation, including something like #3 if presented in a non-religious context.
PAULINE: Except that you greatly underestimate the magnitude and gift of what Maharishi has given to the world. Few spiritual teachers could pull off what he did during the time that he did. There are others now though and Amma is one of them. But that's ok..it's your loss, and the loss of others who can't see it.
5. Whether TM is religious gets into concepts again. By definition # 4 below, it is religious for most people. Religious, as defines in Oxford: 1. devoted to religion, pious devout, 2. of, or concerned with religion. 3. belonging to a monastic order 4. scrupulous , conscientious.. Only the 4th definition would make it religious. If only the Church could get people to be so conscientious eh?
Maharishi was raised in a Hindu culture and his Holy Tradition is Hindu. While he himself is deeply religious and spiritual, as that is the source of his vision and inspiration, he honors his teacher in the way of his culture and tradition in all he does.
Maharishi always talked about God in a way any one of any faith could appreciate and apply their knowledge and experience to their own faith life, the Absolute. And that was only on advanced courses. I never once heard him mention a Hindu deity, in any of this teachings.
The words of the ceremonial song of gratitude to his teacher are in Sanskrit, are sung only by the teacher, not by the one being initiated.
I don't care much about what our present court system deems oK. The US court officials are largely an elected body and there fore can only reflect our own collective consciousness. As far as I know group prayer is still not allowed in in public schools. Most state courts currently supports the death penalty. And the US has more prisoners per capital then any other country in the world. Stats below from google: (This would be much more fiting probem for a Christian spiritual director to focus his attention on I think, and much more in keeping with what Jesus taught too. Some how in your very biased attempt at an EVALUTTION you failed to mention the studies done in Folsom prison and Senegal prison in Africa Phil.....Keep in mind our prison populations compared to others, especially in light of our smaller populations...It says a lot about the injustices of our justice system
1 United States of America 2,085,620 K 2 China 1,548,498 3 Russian Federation 763,054 4 Brazil 330,642 5 India 313,635 6 Ukraine 198,386 7 Mexico 191,890 8 South Africa 186,739 9 Thailand 168,264 10 Iran 133,658
6. I can see how it may appear that initiation ceremony is deceptive. These ceremonies are part of Hindu culture they do them for many events, sometimes daily,. But having been raised a Catholic, and having a few of those questions go through my head, all I can say is that MAHARISHI KNEW the western world was missing something they needed. He met them in the ignorance and gave it to them. It beats the Crusades the Inquisition and selling indulgences Phil and most mediators are very happy they learned. As there are now 6 million initiated in just 50 years, , we can only conclude that the majority of mediators are satisfied with TM and did not feel it conflicted with their religious beliefs. I don't think Centering Prayer has grown that fast.
.7. It's $2500 to learn TM in the US now Phil (not $1000 per day) (But Phil seems to have has a habit of skewing or reporting only information to support hi beliefs ) There is an introductory lecture, and 4 more days of instructions and follow up lecture. That's a one time fee for a LIFE TIME of all the benefits promised if one practices they way they are told to.. It also helps to attend weekend residence courses which run about $120...room and board included.
Admittedly though, It used to bother me about the price too..when it went up. But Maharishis intention to focus on the more educated and wealthy makes sense to me now. It's not much different the Catholic tradition of sending the brightest son off to seminary. If those in positions of relatively more influence ...teachers, l;awyers, engineers,scientists, business people got the inner experience of TM and the knowledge, they would then be in a much better position to help spread it the world. Smart plan really. Maharisi is very shrewd in his humble littlle way. This is in part both how and why there are now 6 million initiated now worldwide in just 50 years. That's quite a success story, imo.
8. Phil, the only thing we tap into is "pure consciousness", or unified field of all possilities. And yes I'd agree that Maharisi taps into a much deeper realm of human spirit then most of us.
9.. Most TM parishioners I know tend to live their lives in much more accordance with the principles Jesus taught....they are in short, much more loving , more compassionate, and non-judgmental. They are not threatened by others beliefs about them or TM, because they simply KNOW themselves.
10. : Phil, FWIW: Just in case you are not aware,.....Amongst some Christians, Catholicism is considered a cult Phil, .I've been hearing that from non- catholic friends ever since I was a kid. Just do a search on google. (And that is about how ridiculous your assertion that TM is a cult sounds to me.. amongst many other beliefs you have.) Here is one link, it's no more fanatical as the link on TM that you started this thread with.... wwww.rapidnet.com~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/isitcult.htm Just more information to clutter that oh so busy mind of yours Phil. Maybe we should both consider getting deprogrammed huh?
I know that for me and most cradled Catholics I know, we have had whole lot of negative programming to overcome from being raised Catholic. But I can't think of any 'Negative" programming from TM because the teachings are all so positive. This is one reason why why TM'rs try to focus on the postive,,because it is a very sound spiritual principle... Over time they all ot the things Maharishi taught have proven themselves to be true in my life...
I Know I appreciate the depth of Christ's teaching and all spiritual teachers, more and more over time BECAUSE the simple universality of Maharishi's teachings and the daily practice of TM, help me go find new insight wisdom at deeper and deeper levels. the Deepest Truths are Simple... Life is found in laryers. Water the root to enjoy the fruit. The whole is contained in the sum of it's parts. The whole is greater then the sum of it's parts..But there is so much more..He's brilliant clear and humble.
I woudn't know about TM'rs not showing the same standards of critical reflection toward Christianity and politics as for TM, but I do know that TM's ARE far less critical about EVERYTHING compared to most Christians, because they recognize that the underlying problem of ALL problems in the world today is IGNORANCE of Natural Law. And that is largely what gets enlivened through regulary tapping into "pure awareness" or unified field through TM. There is less and less inclination to criticize, except in cases where that is the lesser evil to say something like war, because many meditators KNOW how powerful an a effect large group meditation have group consciousness.
My evaluation of this evaluation is could be summed up by saying, that if people would just stick to fully embracing and living the principles of his or her own religion, spiritual practices and/or philosophy or beliefs, rather then going out of their way to find fault to try to prove that yes indeed,their practice and their spirituality is different then mine, and therefore inferior, by golly , then the world would be a lot better often it is today. I shouldn't even bother to post this, being as how Phil could't even bring himself to ponder the questtions I asked him to consider in order to determine if we were on the same page about what criteria makes for a goood spiritual discussion.
Today at church someone shared this story. A group of 4 Palestinians and 4 Jews just climbed a mountain together never before climbed and called it Friendship Mountain. This is the kind of thing I had hoped might blossom in dialogue Shalom Place after being inspired by the Love Habits thread, but I don't see how it ever will when there is so much attachment to being "right" about things we have had no experience with, or as long as there continues to be anti- this or that kind of news posts here.
We're all in this together, so we might as well start acting like it...The church I go to has all creeds, races ethnic origins.. We don't EVALUTATE each other spiritual pracitice. We PRACTICE our spirituality together in loving kindness, acceptance compassion and creativty.. We celebrate the oppurtunity and miracle of the moment in loving one another..
Taking refuge in a facile retort re: the Catholic church's problems resolves nothing, and doesn't even pertain to the topic of TM, as there is corruption among all religious institutions and teachers vested with power. Probably no less for one than the other, which one can either explain as "samsara," or "original sin," take your pick. TM isn't the standard-bearer for Hinduism, but this is a Christian forum where you're simply going to find a certain bias, just as you will among Hindus where there is also going to be presuppositions involved in the discussion.
But more to my real concern:
Even Brad pointed out your arrogance early on, among others as well, and yet you seem to shrug it off like it were a slightly misplaced compliment; it isn't. You have complained about difficult topics being discussed, which is a cheap salvo, since you never participated on those threads - simply chortling at them from a distance, about the distance it takes to condescend. You've been waiting around for others to blossom under your loving gaze, and it just hasn't happened, has it? So all this talk about having an open-hearted discussion just reeks of the entitlement you display.
Please move on to other pastures. I'm sure you'll find some New Age groups like the church you belong to that will help you keep your nest just the way you want it.
posted
Pauline wrote: Contrary to his Catholic Creed,( I believe in ONE God) he apparently allows enough belief in Hindu dieties to be afraid of them, and seems believe they are in part to blame for Catholicims dwindling numbers.
Catholics aren't dwindling in numbers:
quote: Catholic population slightly up, annual report shows
Vatican, Oct. 25, 2004 (CWNews.com) - The world's Catholic population grew by 9.47 million in 2003, reach a total of 1.07 billion, according to a report released by the Vatican on World Mission Sunday.
The number of Catholics rose fastest in the Americas, where the Church added 6.2 million members. (The Vatican treats North and South America as a single continent for statistical purposes; the vast bulk of that growth came in South America.) Among the world's continents, only Europe saw a loss (of 674,000) in Catholic population
Just wanted to set the record straight on that one.
Today at church someone shared this story. A group of 4 Palestinians and 4 Jews just climbed a mountain together never before climbed and called it Friendship Mountain. This is the kind of thing I had hoped might blossom in dialogue Shalom Place after being inspired by the Love Habits thread, but I don't see how it ever will when there is so much attachment to being "right" about things we have had no experience with, or as long as there continues to be anti- this or that kind of news posts here.
That's a sweet story, but you've noticed, no doubt, that it hasn't happened. Different religious perspectives lead to different behaviors. And if the truth be told, here, your frequent resorting to ad-hominem remarks in your post above and all throughout the discussion amply demonstrates this point.
As for the forum . . . if you don't like the content of a particular thread, go to another one, or start one you like. No one has forced you to read and respond to this one. I certainly think a thread on "Evaluating TM" has its place on a board like this, even if you don't happen to agree where I come out with my evaluation.
[ February 05, 2006, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
6. I can see how it may appear that initiation ceremony is deceptive. These ceremonies are part of Hindu culture they do them for many events, sometimes daily,. But having been raised a Catholic, and having a few of those questions go through my head, all I can say is that MAHARISHI KNEW the western world was missing something they needed. He met them in the ignorance and gave it to them. It beats the Crusades the Inquisition and selling indulgences Phil and most mediators are very happy they learned. As there are now 6 million initiated in just 50 years, , we can only conclude that the majority of mediators are satisfied with TM and did not feel it conflicted with their religious beliefs. I don't think Centering Prayer has grown that fast.
Just wanted to be say that this "rebuttal" is a prime examploe of why it's so difficult to dialogue with you about this, Pauline. A. You pretty much discount the point I made about how offensive it is to require Christians or non-Hindus to undertake a Hindu spiritual ritual. B. You apologize for Mahesh -- who must know best, of course, and should always be given the benefit of the doubt. C. You then sieze the moment to find cause to throw out yet more criticisms of Catholicism -- bringing in the "old chestnuts" of the Crusades and the Inquisition (as if we didn't already know how much you dislike the Church) D. You even take a pot-shot at Centering Prayer before signing off.
All that -- because I dared to suggest that Mahesh Yogi is being dishonest and deceptive for not letting people know in advance about the initiation ceremony. Wow! Maybe you should read my #10 again.
[ February 06, 2006, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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Taking refuge in a facile retort re: the Catholic church's problems resolves nothing, and doesn't even pertain to the topic of TM, as there is corruption among all religious institutions and teachers vested with power. Probably no less for one than the other, which one can either explain as "samsara," or "original sin," take your pick.
Exactly WC. And that is EXACTLY why it such a waste of time and energy intended for 'spiritual discourse" on pointing out our finite perceptions of the 'samsara' or 'original sins' of others. It only serves to make ourselves feel a very false sense of self-satisfaction. Much more effective in my experience to look inside and at the holes and needs of our own faith tradition.
I have merely been mirroring back to Phil exactly what he was doing from the beginning on this thread.
I must say though, the fact that he started the link with such a fundementalist ananlysis of TM took me my suprise as I fully expected a much more comprehensive, conscious and less susperstitious understanding of the spiritual contribution of other cultures from him, given his education and mass amount of research being done in quantum physics and consciousness today
But more to my real concern:
Even Brad pointed out your arrogance early on, among others as well, and yet you seem to shrug it off like it were a slightly misplaced compliment; it isn't.
You have complained about difficult topics being discussed, which is a cheap salvo, since you never participated on those threads - simply chortling at them from a distance, about the distance it takes to condescend. You've been waiting around for others to blossom under your loving gaze, and it just hasn't happened, has it? So all this talk about having an open-hearted discussion just reeks of the entitlement you display.
Please move on to other pastures. I'm sure you'll find some New Age groups like the church you belong to that will help you keep your nest just the way you want it.
I have not "complained" about difficult topics WC. I have acknowledged my lack of sufficient knowledge to correspond intellegently about political things though. I have questioned the usefulness of some of the style or standards used for spiritual discourse. I fail to see how resorting to pre-judicialn name calling, and making group generaliztions helps anyone to grow spiritually, especially those using them, and it would make others from those groups not feel comfortable sharing.
As far as my relating to others here,in case you haven't noticed WC, Brad has apparently had his fill of SP, but he and I continue to have an honest,compassionate and profoundly creative and healing off-site connection, thank you very much. As far as I am concerned, Brad was the brightest, wisest, bravest, most consistent, thought provoking and compassionate souls here at SP. And for two people with such HUGE political differences to gain such an understanding and respect for one another is nothing short of a miracle in my book.
I once again wish to apologize to you for getting off on the wrong foot with you. I apologized to you and everyone else for my un-timely and inexperienced post on Paradigm Conspiracy. Brad accepted it and tested it, and our sharing blossomed, MM got my drift from the beginning and we had a several long nice exchanges after that. Eric and I have also had a few good exchanges, on site and off site. Soma and I seem to have an intuitive understanding of one another, with his mind being much more abstract then my own. I also was very pleased with my dialogue with Shasha, despite the very different ways we have integrated our eastern experiences. For me there was a mutual respect and honesty of dialogue.
I also apologized to you for being too "over the top" for your personal taste, even though it is ultimately YOUR problem, being that you are a man who thinks that "ALL men are just struggling with getting their horse saddled and really just want to crawl back into their cave, drink beer and watch football" I've notice you have a pattern of making erroneous claims that others share your experience, when needing to support your position. FWIW, it only tends to weaken you position in my book, as it makes you sound very co-dependent.
I apologized a 3rd time to you for calling you on the Mr. Guest thread, when you felt it was your place to tell me my resonse to him was "not appropriate" ..I was not yet familiar with the many nuiances of "cyberspace cults"
I even sent you a poem, one which most people find profoundly insightful.. You have yet to respond with any soulfullness to any of my apologies, and once again, you are now resorting to calling in the support of an imagined "group think" like an insecure little boy, saying "and nobody else here likes you either" as though you are unable to stand on your own inner convictions...( a symptom of the Catholic cult programming by the way) But some people are born with greater gregarious urges then others, and maybe you really do need help getting in the saddle eh WC.? Maybe a beer and football game really is what does it your soul after-all?
But not to worry, I've about had my fill of the spiritual and poltical biasness here at SP too.... I will be eternally grateful for meeting Brad here though...and I have Phil to thank for that.
I wish I could say it's been real with you WC, but that iron man mask of outer authority and the need to feel "in control" of what you cannot control, is just too thick. It is apparent to me, that you are the one wanting to keep the nest of SP, just the way YOU want it, and that is a real shame. May you and Phil one day come to see the voice and face of Christ lives in everyone, no matter what their beliefs are.
For someone that was not trying to be mean to me, you sure do change your tune a lot
posted
. . . Brad has apparently had his fill of SP, but he and I continue to have an honest,compassionate and profoundly creative and healing off-site connection, thank you very much. As far as I am concerned, Brad was the brightest, wisest, bravest, most consistent, thought provoking and compassionate souls here at SP. . .
I can certainly agree with your affirmation of Brad's good qualities, here, Pauline, but I was unaware that he has "had his fill of SP." That's news to me, and if it's something he shared with you, then I'm sure he didn't intend for you to pass it along -- especially to rebuff w.c., whose relationship with Brad was very positive, from what I observed. Brad has over 5,000 posts on this board regarding countless topics, and I think that says something about how free he felt to express himself here.
I'm closing this thread for awhile now, as it's become mostly contentious and tedious, with little light shed on TM for awhile. If anyone has anything new to share, you can email me and I'll open it for you. Otherwise, I'll re-open it in a couple of months . . . if I remember (someone remind me if I don't).
[ February 06, 2006, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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Maybe you should read my #10 again.
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