Posted by Phil on August 31, 1999 at 14:55:45:
In Reply to: Love of Self, Love of Others - true self, true asceticism posted by johnboy on August 31, 1999 at 12:03:44:
: on our spiritual journey, we don't discard 1) our desires, they are transformed; 2) our attachments, they become properly ordered; 3) our "self",
: we transcend it
I buy this conclusion. The human is transformed, or "divinized" so that we want and desire anew out of a new self. It's still a human self, but it's moved by the divine energy to accomplish the divine will.
: we have created false dichotomies and dualisms and end up missing the point entirely as evidenced by our widespread misunderstanding of ascetical
: theology and this is no small wonder in a church which has, historically, in its seminaries, emphasized moral theology at the expense of mystical theology
Quite so. Touche'
: for instance, the often severe asceticism of the little man from Assisi, of Juan De La Cruz or of other saints or mendicants gets misinterpreted as a
: masochistic, vale of tears mentality, an outlook which fosters the erroneous notions whereby we eradicate desire, rid ourselves of attachments and
: ultimately seek to eliminate *self* entirely --- fact is, these folks were heads over heels in love! and being silly and un-self-conscious comes with
: the territory
Yes. Yes. For one living in an early state of spiritual development to try to "imitate" a divinized human being is not likely to produce good results. We should imitate them in virtue, but stay close to our issues, which, after all, reveal to us "our life."
: and thus, for the mystic, putting others before the self is not problematical at all for there are no false dichotomies --- just like with the Trinity, there
: is always going to be God, self and other--- thus, that five-fingered prayer will mirror, perfectly, that part of the liturgy wherein we offer ourpetitions
To be oneself is to love, and to love is to be oneself.
: for the new catechumen, advocating putting others before the self could be very problematical, leading to false asceticism, justifying oppression, placing
: the obligational always before the aspirational
Not to mention making one codependent. But for very selfish people, it might not be a bad thing to do from time to time--at least to consider what reality looks and feels like from the other's perspective.
It has often seemed to me that many of the old spiritual manuals were written with counterdependent, selfish, hard-heads in mind. When codependent and/or low self-esteem types try to follow those admonitions, it can be deadly for them.
Thanks for your perceptive comments.
Phil