Re: Levels of consciousness (long) (longer:))

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: : : I'm not schooled in these matters as others here are but rely on erudition, experience, intuition and feedback in forums like this. : jb, I like it when people rely on their experience and intuition. It gets to the heart of the matter quite quickly. : : The way I have resolved these issues (and I am always seeking refinement and exhortation) is by eschewing an inflexible literal interpretation and too casual application of such static concepts as states, levels, stages, etc : Yes, I think flexibility is important, too. : We agree here. : ...... We grow as individuals and as a pilgrim Church, too. : Yes and the key word is 'growth." That implies change, changes in interpretations and changes in moral theology, too. : : .....The Moral Theology was, in the past, in a word, impoverished, no doubt about it (that's why, whoever Emma Freud is, well ...). : I think Emma Freud was Freud's daughter. : Anyway, even though we may evolve in states of consciousness, we still see and do things through : the filters of our personalities. (as noted elsewhere in this thread) I am guessing that the moral theology of our Church was developed primarily by the interpretations of men. : Excuse me for saying this John.... but I think so much of the Church is fixated in an adolescent, male sprituality. Domination. Unhealthy sexual attitudes. Well, you know the rest..... Yes, the moral theology is impoverished. : : ..... SELDOM would I think that any of us PERDURE in Charity, in Love. : Do you live in the city? ;) : ..... but it is misguided, I think, to suggest that we ever perdure in a psychic "place" of pure love and unbounded charity constrained as we are by concupisence and then human milieu, still glorious even in its imperfections, maybe moreso? Psychological science reveals that we don't always operate out of the hightest "levels" we've attained. For instance, I find my self-actualization and peak experiencing not to be an attainment but an occasional event. : Would you tell us more about your peak experiences sometime? I am seriously interested in hearing about them, provided it doesn't violate your privacy in any way. : : We likely can make good probability statements regarding how a human being will behave according to their formation, nurture/nature, current milieu (which is broad and deep and long and mysterious). : I know you think mystery is important. Isn't this denying some of the glorious mystery associated with we humans? Anyway, I disagree with this point. : .... using the science of love, I can predict that you will NOT "likely" come across in your lifetime, a person who will always use their freedom to love (we wouldn't be in a position to know this anyway, for only God can know this). I can also predict, I think safely, that when you aren't encountering love that it is more likely that what you are witnessing is a lack of authentic freedom. : Yes, a lack of authentic freedom, a underdeveloped or undeveloped person in certain areas, or just plain old mistakes. They're part of the human condition. We oftentimes act out of ignorance and illusion. Therefore, the person : needs to be shown compassion, not isolation and condemnation, eh? : We are always traveling, never arriving. : We are always in process. : We remain pilgrims, individually and ecclesially. : Yes. : We remain sick and sinners in need of grace and renewal and semper reformanda. : : We do, at times, remain ignorant and struggling : in our human condition. Is it sick to be human? : Is a moral judgment necessary? Are we bad (moral judgment) or are we ignorant? : You mentioned humanity/divinity somewhere else in this post. I think the more truly human we become, the more divine we become. I don't think these are qualities that have to be polarized or dichotimized. I think the continuum of one flows right into the continuum of the other. : : Additional confusion can arise from mixing up statements which are metaphorical, anagogical, unitive, etc : Granted. : : Even more confusion arises, I believe, from not distinguishing between natural and supernatural processes. We don't collapse dual-nondual "states" for instance, as if there were some Hegelian dialectic/synthesis going on. We say not two-not one. As Catholics we say both/and. We experience the apophatic and nurture it kataphatically and then return and do it again, crossing and recrossing liminal thresholds. : Beautiful. However, why must we keep analyzing : things? Analyzing something can kill it. The gestalt of living processes tend to defy strict analyzations. : Yes! to both/and. Beautiful! to crossing liminal thresholds! : Do they perdure in Charity? For the most part, I'm sure fundamental orientations can get VERY well grounded in Love. Do all human behaviors derive from core fundamental orientations? No, some come from the peripheral and not so very well grounded in love parts of our being and some of these behaviors are mistakes but assuredly some of them are rejections of Love and lack of cooperation with grace. : Yes, john, some behaviors are rejections of Love and lack of cooperation with grace. But, did you ever wonder why it happens? The more we get to know people intimately, without the bullshit; the more we can, if we so choose, to love them and understand their choices. Then, imagine how much more God loves them and understands their human frailities! : : ....... : .......that aspect whereby we are, in a phrase, being deified. : We are already deified jb. We are just finding out about it. : : God's Transcendent Presence initiates us into a new mode of existence. In this theological and personal sense, as we become most fully what we can "divinely", we will discover all manner of spiritual resourcefulness, more appropriately "giftedness" . Again, much can take place, in the way of growth, in this "supernatural" order of things, when "trustful surrender and abadonment to Divine Providence" takes place. A full "awakening" of our "divine" potentialities is fully informed by the faculty of the will with a valence, so to speak, in the direction of Truth, Beauty, Justice and Love, of God, however He or She is, explicitly or implicitly, conceived by the Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, whomever. : Radical trust. : ......... : : the "superhuman", existentially and ontologically, with fully potentialized humanity, is no doubt on the very threshold of the supernatural. on this threshold, the "superhuman" may nonetheless be poised for "spiritual union" with either supreme Goodness or ultimate evil. it is when we cross the threshold of intellect to faith, memory to hope and will to love that our human potentialities take on a valence, a direction. when we resist crossing this spiritual rubicon, we are in jeopardy of turning to a world of magic, of sorcery, of the occult as we order our intellect, memory, will and other faculties toward self and power, prestige, pride, possessions, pleasure and subtle forms of spiritual ambition. : I heard Tony DeMello say, "There is a thin line : between a Gandhi and a Hitler." I remember a total hush swept across the room. This is where temptation enters the picture. : .......... : : there is indeed a mysterious nexus between the human and the divine, but our relationship to the divine is connatural in the metaphysical sense but not necessarily consanguinal, not a metaphysical bloodline. how can i better say this? we are co-heirs through adoption (hence no pantheism). probably through a good Christology, Christians will get a better grasp of who we are as individuals and a People by looking to Jesus, even academically; Christians and nonChristians alike, who, in the manner of our living and through our surrender to the Good, can realize existentially who we are via our trust relationship to Ultimate Reality. : We are brothers and sisters of Christ, john. : We are asked to develop the Christ consciousness that was shared with us. : In a sense, the Christ story is our story as we progress through the levels of consciousness. : : : our aspirations and desires in the yuppie world of yada, yada, yada contribute to and draw from a pseudo-unitive-consciousness that is subtly devoted to the world or the self or the devil and our contact with this false ultimacy and our inauthentic relationship to creatures can spark ecstasies and bliss and psychic-euphoric phenomena. : I think you are placing too much emphasis on : the negative here and giving people too little credit for good common sense. I'd rather focus on the postive. God is much stronger than all that other rot. : : I guess i burned a lot of bandwidth to suggest that there are "onenesses" and there is the ONENESS. people from manifold religions, traditions, paths can and do experience both on their earthly sojourns. : Yes, but people can tell the difference after a while. It's known as discernment. They learn the inauthentic 'oneness' from the real ONENESS. And, once they taste the real ONENESS, they know there is no real comparison. : ....... : : I DO BELIEVE, like the Dominicans, in Life-Long Learning (do I have the right order here?). I also believe that all things are possible with God and that She raises up saints, East and West, throughout history. I am not educated enough to comment on what avatars might truly be but I acknowledge a debt to the Hindu tradition and all other major religions. My faith teaches, however, that Jesus is THE Christ and that I am a co-heir through adoption and not ontologically. He is pure love and I am not. My participation in Love is NOW and my fuller participation is an eschatological event. Thus, metaphorically, the Kingdom/Christ Consciousness in me is NOW; anagogically, the Kingdom/Christ Consciousness in me is TO COME; unitively, NEITHER of those statements is who I AM. Your first sign of gnosticism is when MYSTERY disappears from someone's explanations. : Yes! to NOW and Yes! TO COME. It's all happening and it's all going to happen. : : Mystery perdures. Love perdures. Mystical "States" perdure. : : The mystery of how love might perdure in perduring mystical states perdures. : Yes, and this is beautiful. : : Love (best I can), : I don't think you give yourself or humans beings, in general, enough credit in this post. We have such a goodness within us, john. It's so hard to focus on it with the news media and people like Augustine. Look at Eckhart! : Thank you for taking the time out to share your thoughts with me. There's so much to them! I hope you don't laugh too much at my responses. : For the moment, it's the best I can do. : With Love and Laughter, too, : Diana

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