Posted by Anne Ward on June 25, 19101 at 11:25:21:
In Reply to: Re: Where is the Body of Christ? posted by Diana on June 24, 19101 at 16:04:39:
: Anne Ward!
: It's good to hear from you again. I was just asking Phil about you
the other day. I hope your
: eyes have fully recovered and you are doing well.
: It's nice to have you with us.
**it is very good to be back. The eyes are much better, thanks be to God. have some
catarract surgery somewhere down the line but not yet!!!!! Treatment for condition called Dry
Eyes really helped. Love the doctors....**
: Thanks for taking the time to respond to my comments. I sometimes use
shalomplace to think aloud. It's good to hear other viewpoints and
opinions.
**it would truly be dangerous for ME to start thinking aloud on shalomplace...:)**
: Now, Anne, let's pretend we're in Starbucks and
: having a chat over a good cup of coffee (for you)
: and milk (for me). (I hate coffee!) Oh, we're munching on brownies,
too, ok? ......sooo.....
**okay, but I want the very best Colombian coffee! none of those new fancy coffees...just
plain straight Columbian......and the brownie...oh I wish! **
: Anne said:
: : *God's love...ah, how marvelous it is! But you know, Love seems to
be a bit of a challenge
: : sometimes. Does God's love cover and excuse all 'things'...all
behaviors? I wonder. I know
: : He is a God of compassion; but there is Justice in there somewhere,
I think.*
: D:
: A tad of justice, Anne. Just a tad. When we do
: something wrong, the 'punishment' is inherent in the behavior itself.
**ah, lassie. tis true...we punish ourselves immensely, BUT there is still the temporal
punishment...and dear ole purgatory. Purgatory is the most sensible of sensible.
Diana...*I* just don't think we can get off that easy.....**
There's no need for God or a religious authority figure to punish us.
So many of the things we do are out of ignorance and immaturity,
anyway. We can be such silly creatures.
**now that is the truth! I am my own worst enemy...and can shoot myself in the foot quicker
than you can blink your eye. We are silly....we or *I* can do some of the dumbest things, but
think they are the smartest ...until later. :)**
In that case, we
: really need a God that loves us through it all. The God of
overwhelming Love, Compassion, and Mercy.
**but we are still accountable, are we not? From your above statement, may I ask: do you
believe in an afterlife....
and if so, does that mean there is no punishment in the after life?
To me, I have no idea...I truly believe in 3 places: hell, purgatory, and heaven. I think the way
we live on a regular basis will determine which of those 3 will be our home in the great bye and
bye and pray that purgatory isn't as long as I think it will be for me....
At the same time, we love a compassionate and caring God and Lord...and who knows what
will happen at each person's last gasp of breath. I don't....but I sort of have the view that each
and every one of us will have a sort of 'last opportunity' to accept/reject Him..and His
forgiveness. Of course, the choice is ours...we can accept or reject. **
: ........
: D said:
: : This way of thinking seems to have also spread to various
organizations where, if a certain
: : speaker is
: : present, others immediately withdraw support or condemn the entire
proceedings.
: A:
: : *guess that is what is called--varied opinions! And thankfully we
CAN take umbrage, if we
: : want! :) sure beats having someone, whose viewpoints are anathema
to you personally shoved
: : down your throat! ....gracious...I think of pro-life and its stand
against abortion [a nice word
: : for murder, IMVHO] objecting to a proponent of abortion speaking at
a Catholic
: : University...or such. Thanks be to God that they have the courage
to stand up and be
: : counted.....*
: D:
: One of the examples I was thinking about, Anne, was the case of Sr.
Joan Chittister. She had an article in NCR some time ago naming the
bullying in the Church for what it is. Later, other people in the
Church tried to prevent people from hearing her speak.
**am going to look for the article**
: Saying our truth does not come easy Anne. There is usually a great
price to pay.
: Now, I won't get into a discussion with you about the abortion issue
here but I do think it is dreadful to call it 'murder.' I think bigots
use inflammatory words like that to hurt people and
: initiate hate based violence. The Anti-Defamation League has a guide
for adults and children called, "Hate Hurts." It talks about the
various forms of prejudice, violence, and bullying. There sure is a ton
of judgment contained in that one word, in my opinion anyway.
**---*I* do not think it dreadful to call abortion what it is. And I take umbrage as being
labeled a 'bigot'....and gracious, do you not think that abortion doesn't hurt and initiates violence
within itself.
Yes, "Hate hurts", but who ever said hate was involved in calling abortion what it is: murder. If
it isn't murder--what is it? Choice? oh, my!
There is no judgment in the word, Diana....it is, for me, a statement of fact.
BUT it is evident that you and I are on opposite poles in regards to this matter, so probably be
best to leave it be. ....using good dialogic dialogue, that is! ;0
: More of D:
: : Yet, as I understand it, the Body of Christ is present not only in
the Eucharist but also in each
: : and every one of us. For example, Mother Theresa saw the Body of
Christ present in the street
: : people.
: A said:
: : *We see Christ in one another, but not necessarily THE Body that is
present in the Eucharist!
: : All of us are see our wonderful 'Christ' in others...but Diana, that
is totally different than the
: : Christ present in the Eucharist.*
: Paul said it Anne. Now, it's not me but Christ who lives in me......I
bet you know the number of the verse.
**Diana...this is a bit like trying to bait me...but yes, I know the scripture...Gal 2:20, but cannot
see how that is the same as the consecrated Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
I am struggling to find a way to explain it....ah, yes! We are all created by our Lord jesus
Christ who was The Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God...and
therefore, since we are all created by Christ, then He abides in all. So, when I look at my
neighbor, I am to see 'Christ' in that neighbor [not the jerk who has too many loudmouthed
roosters who crow all day long---]
That is not the same as the Christ present in the Eucharist...**
: A:
: : *I would guess the Magisterium....that would be my guess.
: : As for Rainbow Sash...last summer they appeared at the Bishops
Meeting in Washington,
: : appeared at the Eucharist BUT were told ahead of time, by the
bishops, that they..the R.S.
: : would not be allowed to receive.
: : Sounds callous, uncaring..lack of compassion BUT...you know, who can
tell if the person
: : wearing the sash is an 'active' homosexual, lesbian, bisexual,
transgendered individual?
: D:
: ...and how can they tell what we married people are doing in the
privacy of our bedroom? Would it be right for them to base their entire
opinion on us as human beings and our reception of the Eucharist because
of what we do or do not do with our private parts?
**heheheeeeee .,only if you advertised as they did! :) sorry, but that tickled me funny bone.
**
: More D:
: : Can denying the Eucharist to people keep them from the Christ
within? What good purpose can
: : it ever serve?
: : *It might keep a soul from being put in jeoprody (sp)...if they
received our Lord and were
: : NOT in a state of grace. Now, no priest knows who is and who isn't
in a state of grace as they
: : come down to receive, BUT if you are wearing a Rainbow Sash... let
everyone know your
: : intent, then it is questionable.[for is this person 'active'
inactive..??] ..*
: Anne, as I heard it, there were two bishops who did, indeed, allow
Communion to be distributed to people wearing Rainbow Sashes.
**So, does that make it right? especially when the bishops had agreed the previous summer
NOT to allow R.S. to receive. And one of the bishops...Bishop Clark....well, he is bishop of
rochester area...and it took him 20 years or so, to finally stop a priest who was allowing nuns to
give the homily, and other non-liturgically correct 'stuff'.....**
: D said,
: : I find this situation offensive and counterproductive.
: Anne said,
: : *I find it protective ..of our Lord and His Body.*
:
: Anne, do we have to protect our Lord?
We do ---in a way. .
Look at how God sent Jesus here
to die in order to conquer death. Perhaps, that is what must happen now
to the Eucharist. It may need die in one conceptual way in order to be
born in another.
**I am not sure how to interpret this.....so maybe you might need to clarify, ok? I do know
that the bishops, during Atlanta mtg., were concerned about the lack of many Catholics to
understand the REAL Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist....[via transubstantiation],...and they
have reaffirmed transusbstaniation completely. You can read it at their website, if you wish....it
can be found at:
http://www.nccbuscc.org/dpp/realpresence.htm
to me, the distressing thing is: How come it has to be reaffirmed/ Evidently the Church sort of
fell down on proper catechis, I guess.**
: D said,
: : I think it alienates far more than it benefits anyone
: : associated with it in any way.
:
: Anne said,
: : *surprise..but i disagree. I think it gives great hope to the Body
of Christ..the faithful..that the
: : Church will stand up and uphold what it teaches. Gives me great
hope....*
: Anne, Phil always told me we were 180 degrees theologically
different. No surprise. :) Anyway, thanks. I like hearing your
viewpoints.
**we are truly at divergent points....but I enjoy your viewpoints as well.**
: : *this puzzles me beyond belief.....The Body of Christ in the
Eucharist is the consecrated Body
: : of our Lord....
: : In what way do you propose considering that it already exists in
people? well, it does...for a
: : wee bit of time..after receiving our Lord...but after that ???
: : Christ is to be seen in all people, yes; but not the consecrated
Body of the Eucharist.
: : Are you saying that ALL people, no matter who they are; no matter
their state of grace; or
: : whether they even believe in Transubstantiation should be allowed to
receive because He
: : already exists within them?
: : I need some clarification of what you mean....:)
:
: ok, Anne, I'll try.... We have a false self and a
: Christ self. Our Christ self is the self that Paul is talking about
in the above mentioned verse.... in my opinion. We are actually
evolving
: into other Christs, as I understand it. Not imitations of Christ but
adopted Christs!
: That is not
: identical to the real presence in the Eucharist but that is equally
important. Therefore, to place undue emphasis on the Christ present in
the Eucharist and to judge and exclude your brother or sister is not in
keeping with Gospel values, as I understand them. I don't think we can
compartmentalize and tidy up where Christ resides and relegate him only
to the Eucharist.
s**ee article at the Bishops site...**
That would give the Church a monopoly over Christ. I
don't think he came here to found monopolies. In fact, he went out of
his way to be with those who were shunned by society.
**Christ may not have come to adopt a monopoly so to speak, but He did found a Church
which exists today.**
:
: : *and Diana.. ...IF you were given the opportunity to define what
comprises the Church and its
: : sacraments.....what would you say? *
: The Church would be the "People of God."
: I haven't come up with a formal definition for the Sacraments
yet....:)
**There are some great ones in the Catechism! :)
love ya, kiddo....
am pooped! Got rest a wee bit...then take a chapter test in Math this pm. gotta do it while it
anne who is still so orthodox she might make the pope look less than orthodox :)...but am
trying to be open. But I do have a problem with anyone trying to downsize the importance of
Christ in the Eucharist...as spelled out by the Church and transubstaniation. Doesn't mean I
don't love someone who does the downsizing, but would have to be concerned...that's all.
ole anne
and Phil...I shall start afresh next time! this is long...