Yes, technically any such method could lead one to some degree of letting go, to letting in, and then to letting God. However, if the false self is already being reinforced in the guru-disciple relationship via cultural incompatibility where the disciple projects the affects of all-good/all-bad splitting, then everything gets distorted. The acid test would probably be to stick it out in therapy and let oneself be seen in ways that don't support the false self system (assuming the therapist knows how to identify such things, let alone navigate the intervention), yet the false self is hardly a self-referring mechanism for such painful revelations that would effectively put it out of business.
But with TM, or any technique, a step in the direction of really letting go might be:
STOP DOING IT, and then see what cravings/aversion/loneliness come up that have been anaesthetized by the false self trancing, and take that pain into psychotherapy. But again, the false self system in operation simply isn't going to really let anyone "in," to any significant degree. That's why the guru-disciple relationship is so attractive, as the false self gets to deepen itself through projections onto another human being.
posted
Now that Phil is growing weary of fighting the windmills, there seems to be different feeling on this thread.
I very much agree with some of what WC has posted, especially the following: (Imagine that WC ! )
"Letting go, Letting in, Letting God"
When we can really let ourselves do that, it has a way of keeping our focus on what is most life giving to ourselves and those we are in relationship with. I know I have many ways to be more creative and life giving to myself and others, then spending long hours in front of a computer searching for seemingly endless, useless information to educate others who might not even read what I post, about something that I ultimately know and absolutely trust does not need my defense or influence. There is a Higher Power directing each of our live to exactly where it is that we need to be. We each are now and have always been our own best deceivers.
It's enough to simply trust in God and Divine Law. Anyone who truly seeks with a sincere heart will find their way if they let their hearts lead with love and use their minds to when needed to integrate and to test the teachings of ANY teacher from ANY spiritual tradition, whether they are born into it, or led to it.
As I mentioned before Phil, you were the one who started this thread. Contrary to your post above where you cite your reason for starting a thread on TM, as being because Shasha reported having had some 'hostile' experiences with her TM mantra....Shasha did not learn TM, Phil, but rather Siddha Yoga at age 25. (This just demonstrates how easy it is to distort and/or use facts to support our beliefs in the relative world, when approaching understanding from the intellect alone. I wonder if anyone has ever tested the honesty or psychological stability of devout Catholics ? Some of the headlines of recent years would warrant one, imo, but you don't see de-cultifiers testing them for some reason....some Christians think it's a cult)
I do not mean any of what I have to say next to offend or demean Shasha or her experiences, as I know her experiences were very real to her. She was very courageous to share them and I honor her journey and her responses back to me. But it was apparent to me, from the nature of her posts, that she had not had the benefit of MANY lectures from Maharishi available on residence courses.
If Shasha had the benefit of them, she MIGHT have prevented some of her experiences and would have been able to integrate any negative experiences that might have come up as a result of deep purification or unstressing, with a more objective, scientific and integrated, understanding. She would have learned some basic principles, which if successfully applied to her life, would have greatly reduced and even prevented her extreme negative experiences.
The mind can get more powerful in the subtle realms, especially in Siddha Yoga. When new consciousness of anything is gained whether it is in the relative, or in more subtle realms of the new frontiers of consciousness, it is VERY important for the mind to have the proper knowledge to integrate and name it. With out that, it's very easy to make mistakes. Unfortunately, Shasha is another one, who believes very strongly that Hindu deities are real, and that mantras.... simple Sanskrit sounds..can be "evil". C minor can sound scary, relative to other notes on the musical scale, but do we call it 'evil.? Shasha seems to have found her way to a more integrated and relational understanding her experiences and I hope it continues.
And by the way Phil, for some one who doesn't place much stock in anecdotes, you certainly seemed invested in Shasha's. Personally, I've always found our stories to be revealing of deeper truths. After all, the Bible is filled with anecdotes. Thom Hartman, a Catholic renaissance man, radio talk show host, prolific writer, therapist, says it well : "History proves that when our stories change, the world changes"
Interesting posts you added WC. It's nice Phil has you there as back up, to help carry his torch through the darkness !
posted
Since this is not Fox News, we can be fair and balanced. I am Catholic and I think Catholicism can stand on its own three feet (Trinity). We don't have to bash other spiritual practises to make Catholicism better.Research studies on TM have been published in more than 600 journals the list follows of the ones where there were positive results.
Academy of Management Journal Addictive Behaviors AGE American Journal of Hypertension American Journal of Physiology American Journal of Psychiatry American Psychologist British Journal of Educational Psychology British Journal of Psychology Bulletin on Narcotics Bulletin of the Society of Psychologists in Addictive Behaviors Business and Health Circulation Clinical and Experimental Pharmacology and Physiology Clinical Research College Student Journal Criminal Justice and Behavior Drug Forum Education Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology Experimental Neurology Hormones and Behavior Hospital and Community Psychiatry International Journal of Comparative and Applied Criminal Justice International Journal of Neuroscience International Journal of the Addictions Journal of Applied Physiology: Respiratory, Environmental and Exercise Physiology Journal of Biomedicine Journal of Chronic Disease and Therapeutic Research Journal of Clinical Psychiatry Journal of Clinical Psychology Journal of Conflict Resolution Journal of Counseling and Development Journal of Counseling Psychology Journal of Creative Behavior Journal of Crime and Justice Journal of Criminal Justice Journal of Human Stress Journal of Humanistic Psychology Journal of Inhalation Technology Journal of Mind and Behavior Journal of Moral Education Journal of Neural Transmission Journal of Personality and Individual Differences Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Journal of Personality Assessment Journal of Psychology Journal of Psychosomatic Research Journal of Social Behavior and Personality Journal of the American Association of Nephrology Nurses and Technicians Journal of the American Society of Psychosomatic Dentistry and Medicine Journal of the Canadian Medical Association Journal of the Israel Medical Association (Harefuah) L'Encephale Lancet Medizinische Klinik Memory and Cognition Motivation Motor and Sensory Processes of the Brain Progress in Brain Research Neuroendocrinology Letters Perceptual and Motor Skills Pflugers Archiv The Physiologist Physiology & Behavior Psychologia—An International Journal of Psychology in the Orient Psychological Reports Psychopathometrie Psychophysiology Psychosomatic medicine Psychotherapie-Psychosomatik Medizinische Psychologie Respiration Revue d'electroencephalographie et de neurophysiologie clinique Science Scientific American Sleep Research Social Indicators Research Social Science Perspectives Journal Society for Neuroscience Abstracts Tijdschrift voor Psychologie (Behavior: Journal of Psychology) Transactions of the American Society for Neurochemistry Ugeskrift for Loeger Verhandlungen der Gesellschaft fur Okologie Vestes: the Australian Universities' Review Western Psychologist Zeitschrift fur Allgemeinmedizin Zeitschrift fur Elektroenzephalographie und Elektromyographie Zeitschrift fur Klinische Psychologie
They studied TM at over 200 universities with positive results. The list follows
Boston University Cornell University George Washington University Harvard Medical School Harvard University Indiana University Lawrence Livermore National University Massachusetts Institute of Technology Maharishi University of Management Ohio State University Pennsylvania State University Princeton University Purdue University Stanford University State University College of New York (at Brockport, Buffalo and New Paltz) University of Arkansas University of California (at Berkeley, Irvine, Los Angeles, San Diego and Santa Cruz) University of Chicago University of Colorado Medical Center University of Florida University of Georgia University of Kansas University of Maryland University of Massachusetts University of Michigan Medical School University of Michigan University of Minnesota University of Oklahoma University of Pittsburg University of Southern California University of Tennessee University of Texas (at Austin and El Paso) University of Virginia Medical Center University of Washington West Virginia University Western Kentucky University Western Washington State College Xavier University Yale Medical School
These are credible studies at good institutions without an agenda.
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Now that Phil is growing weary of fighting the windmills, there seems to be different feeling on this thread.
Slightly ad hominem.
It's enough to simply trust in God and Divine Law. Anyone who truly seeks with a sincere heart will find their way if they let their hearts lead with love and use their minds to when needed to integrate and to test the teachings of ANY teacher from ANY spiritual tradition, whether they are born into it, or led to it.
Which is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches about human beings being able to be saved through fidelity to the leadings of their conscience. That's not the issue under discussion, however, nor is it the kind of principle we can use to dismiss the very real differences among the world religions.
As I mentioned before Phil, you were the one who started this thread. Contrary to your post above where you cite your reason for starting a thread on TM, as being because Shasha reported having had some 'hostile' experiences with her TM mantra....Shasha did not learn TM, Phil, but rather Siddha Yoga at age 25. (This just demonstrates how easy it is to distort and/or use facts to support our beliefs in the relative world, when approaching understanding from the intellect alone.
Slightly ad hominem again. Shasha reported having bad experiences connected with a mantra she had learned from a Hindu tradition, and that brought about the discussion of TM. So you found a technical "gotcha" in that she hadn't practiced TM . . . fine. That hardly constitutes "distorting and using facts to support my beliefs," however.
I do not mean any of what I have to say next to offend or demean Shasha or her experiences, as I know her experiences were very real to her. She was very courageous to share them and I honor her journey and her responses back to me. But it was apparent to me, from the nature of her posts, that she had not had the benefit of MANY lectures from Maharishi available on residence courses.
She seems to think she's much better off now in the good hands of Jesus Christ. That was the point of her sharing.
If Shasha had the benefit of them, she MIGHT have prevented some of her experiences and would have been able to integrate any negative experiences that might have come up as a result of deep purification or unstressing, with a more objective, scientific and integrated, understanding. She would have learned some basic principles, which if successfully applied to her life, would have greatly reduced and even prevented her extreme negative experiences.
Maybe. Hypothetical. OTOH, she might have been drawn in even more into Eastern pathways, and she seems to be recognizing some essential distinctions now.
The mind can get more powerful in the subtle realms, especially in Siddha Yoga. When new consciousness of anything is gained whether it is in the relative, or in more subtle realms of the new frontiers of consciousness, it is VERY important for the mind to have the proper knowledge to integrate and name it. With out that, it's very easy to make mistakes. Unfortunately, Shasha is another one, who believes very strongly that Hindu deities are real, and that mantras.... simple Sanskrit sounds..can be "evil". C minor can sound scary, relative to other notes on the musical scale, but do we call it 'evil.? Shasha seems to have found her way to a more integrated and relational understanding her experiences and I hope it continues.
So why do you NOT believe they are real, Pauline? How can you be so sure that there are no spiritual entities corresponding to what/whom the Hindus worship and the mantras invoke? You don't know that! It's just your opinion. Hindus believe in them . . . report encountering them . . . have built their very religion around these suppositions. Catholic theology asserts the existence of dis-incarnate spiritual entities -- angelic, human and who knows what else? It's very odd indeed that you continue to argue so vehemently against this point.
And by the way Phil, for some one who doesn't place much stock in anecdotes, you certainly seemed invested in Shasha's. Personally, I've always found our stories to be revealing of deeper truths. After all, the Bible is filled with anecdotes. Thom Hartman, a Catholic renaissance man, radio talk show host, prolific writer, therapist, says it well : "History proves that when our stories change, the world changes"
I don't base anything on Shasha's experiences. Anecdotal material does have its place in evaluating spiritual traditions and practices; I've never denied that. It's just not the only nor even the best way to do this kind of evaluation.
Interesting posts you added WC. It's nice Phil has you there as back up, to help carry his torch through the darkness !
Ad hominem. Stop doing that.
[ February 01, 2006, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by soma: Since this is not Fox News, we can be fair and balanced. I am Catholic and I think Catholicism can stand on its own three feet (Trinity). We don't have to bash other spiritual practises to make Catholicism better.Research studies on TM have been published in more than 600 journals the list follows of the ones where there were positive results.
. . .
These are credible studies at good institutions without an agenda.
What studies? You posted a list of institutions.
But I do know there've been positive results with TM, but there've been negative ones as well -- very much under-reported.
The thread topic on "evaluation" doesn't pertain to what researchers are measuring, however, but to the three points I raised in my opening post.
If you're hearing all this as "bashing other spiritual practises to make Catholicism better," then I think you've misunderstood the purpose of the discussion. So how about if I reverse your point and ask you to explain how and why TM practice as taught by Maharishi could make Catholicism better? If it's such a good thing, then should the Catholic Church be getting behind it . . . encouraging Catholics to go the TM route: consecration ceremony, invoking Hindu spiritual entities, etc.? Good idea?
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Phil from previous post: " How can you be so sure that there are no spiritual entities corresponding to what/whom the Hindus worship and the mantras invoke? You don't know that! It's just your opinion. Hindus believe in them . . . report encountering them . . . have built their very religion around these suppositions. Catholic theology asserts the existence of dis-incarnate spiritual entities -- angelic, human and who knows what else? It's very odd indeed that you continue to argue so vehemently against this point"
********************************** Now these are some really good exciting questions to me and I will be happy explore them, but it may take a few days, maybe a few weeks. These are the kinds of quesions I love to talk about and ponder, and would like to know if there is anything in Catholic doctrine that equates to my musings.....
Not that I am trying to fit into the current Catholic mold of understanding, but if the shoe happens to fit, that will be very encouraging to me.
And Soma I hope you stick around for this discussion...I think we may share an intuitive understanding about this.
For starters though, and as food for thought, the answer to your first question "So why do you NOT believe HIndu Deities are real, Pauline?" .....
will be sort of similar, but a more meta-physical answer that you might give someone if asked "Why don't you believe Santa Claus is real? "
peace, pauline
ps. Why is it 'ad homien' for me to call attention to WC for helping you carry the torch, but it's not "ad homien" for you to call it "rescuing" if Soma or someone else who might resonate with my reflections wants to add their perspective?
"Slightly ad hominem again. Shasha reported having bad experiences connected with a mantra she had learned from a Hindu tradition, and that brought about the discussion of TM. So you found a technical "gotcha" in that she hadn't practiced TM . . . fine. That hardly constitutes "distorting and using facts to support my beliefs," however."
Phil you specifically said a TM MANTRA ...and for you there is not a difference, but to me and millions of TMrs there is a HUGE difference...Not because of the mantra per se, but because of the knowledge that is available to us through TM , and possibly in more ways then may meet the eye.
posted
Not that I am trying to fit into the current Catholic mold of understanding, but if the shoe happens to fit, that will be very encouraging to me.
It's way down on the list of perspectives you identified with on that beliefnet survey . . . far behind Neo-Paganism and Hinduism. I suspect your profile would have been quite different 30 years ago . . . I know it was.
For starters though, and as food for thought, the answer to your first question "So why do you NOT believe HIndu Deities are real, Pauline?" .....
will be sort of similar, but a more meta-physical answer that you might give someone if asked "Why don't you believe Santa Claus is real? "
Go ahead . . . should be interesting. Note, however, that I do not consider them "deities" in the same sense that I consider the Persons of the Trinity. I've referred to them all along as "spiritual entitites," and I have no reason to believe that such are not involved in Hindu worship and practice. This is not to say that they are "evil entities," of course, but it may be that some do lead away from Christ. I don't think anything you can say can convince me otherwise, especially if your "Santa Claus" analogy is a sign of things to come.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
FWIW, I think that test had ALOT of holes in it. There weren't even categories to adequately express my perspectives, but it's most likely just a language problem.
How we NAME our experience makes a big difference in our concepts, and therefore our realities. I don't have "very strong" attachment to any "beliefs" because so far,they have changed over time.
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The love of Christ presents man’s spirit with an intuitive understanding that the mysteries of faith can be brought into existence and appreciated. These mysteries are given to us to be mastered, and they seek understanding, not only in reflection, but also in prayer and meditation. God is everything, which we try to represent for the intellect and is infinitely more so we pass from philosophical understanding to faith, and then we pass from faith to spiritual understanding. Spiritual understanding is an intensification of faith transforming it into a vision, an experience and a mystical union. This spiritual vision is accomplished by suspending the mind and the ego for a moment where we give ourselves totally to God. Ego and mind are a kind of anxiety that ties the spirit down to the physical plane and allows no enlargement of consciousness.
The rosary, centering prayer, silence, contemplation can help suspend the mind. I see TM as a kind of rosary bead for the mind. Yes, it is expensive and should be free, but that is another debate. The mind is occupied with repeating the mantra, (lactivo divina)a phrase from the Bible could be used. The mind tries to wander, but is continuely brought back to the mantra. At some point similar to the stations of the cross one is no longer identifying with the mind and is in a state of witness watching the ceremony or the mind repeating the mantra. At this point I think the soul which gives life to the body starts to take control and spirit to communicate with God.
I like to meditate with Christian symbols to get to the abstract because I can identify and am moved by Jesus Christ, but a mental bead TM used to suspend the mind and ego could be the vehicle to deep Christian contemplation. Where what I like to call Christ consciousness can guide us the rest of the way.
I feel Jesus by his grace died for us and then rose again spiritually to resurrect our consciousness from our egos and if TM is given to one and one is awakened spiritually it is good. If one has a bad experience drop it, but that doesn't mean it is bad for all.
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w.c.
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posted
"The mind is occupied with repeating the mantra, (lactivo divina)a phrase from the Bible could be used. The mind tries to wander, but is continuely brought back to the mantra."
Soma:
This is a basic misunderstanding of Lectio Divina, which has nothing to do with mantra or the repetition of scripture to still the mind. You seem to be confusing relationship with technique.
Consider this weblink for clarification re: Lectio Divina:
posted
"The mind tries to wander, but is continuely brought back to the mantra. At some point similar to the stations of the cross one is no longer identifying with the mind and is in a state of witness watching the ceremony or the mind repeating the mantra."
I like the way you express your thoughts Soma...simple, universal and profound all at the same time, which resonates with how I experience Christ.
I wanted to make one distinction about the instruction on using TM Mantra..It is very much stressed in instruction, to NOT try to concentrate, but simply say the mantra, letting thoughts come if they come, and when one realizes it, simply and easily go back to the mantra. After a while..years maybe, depends on each individual and the relative purity of their consciousnes to start with, eventualy the mantra isn't even needed, or said only once or twice silently.. For some it may be just few times, and for others (like myself) it takes years... But eventually,it becomes easier and easier to go to the state of pure awareness, until there is less and less distinction between the waking state and transcendent state of "pure awareness" And praying from this place is very deepening.
And yes TM is too expensive in the US now.....Maharishi's reasoning on that is becaues collectively, people in the US seem to value things more when they have to paid more for for them...I prefer it be different, but I trust he has his reasons and that they are well intentioned..Perhaps to help teach TM in other countries. Ther are a few renigade teachers that teach the way Maharishi originally told them to teach 40 years ago....which was not to turn anyone one away that really wants to learn...but all things once they get instiutionalized seemed loose touch a bit with the pure intentions of their origin. It's been interesting to observe that first hand actually ..
Maharishi used the example of dying cloth yellow to illustrate how daily deep innersilence can change ones consciousness Each time ithe cloths is dipped and dryed, it is a deeper shade of yellow. By regular dipping every day there is eventually no difference in the color...it is saturated with the source of color it was dipped into.,..And so it is with the state of pure awareness. From that place, there one begins to experience others as themselves..hence the wisdom in the words..'the fact that I love you is no concern of yours"
TM is not the only regular practice I had though.. I was in a Rosary group once a week 9 years with 5 girlfreinds of mine..but some moved away or had things come up. I really miss it but it's hard to get others to commit to it. The woman who started it, Yvonne, (Invitation to Life) She is now about 83 years old now and still going strong. She was the the daughter of a french Celtic midwife..As a child Mary often appeared to her, and her mothers "patients" always wanted Yvonne to be there with them.. She only has 6th grade education but her rosary groups are world wide now,with many professional and highly educated people who participate. And she has been very successful with youth groups in drug infested Latin American countries People use their own money to go to different troubled spots to pray...and do I mean pray..I went on a pilgrimage to Mexico . About 100 people on buses praying the rosary and singing in spanish non-stop about 14 hours a day...It was intense..but joyful. When Yvonne talked about Jesus,or the the Mayan ruins, she talks about them as though she had been there, and with great compassion......and people would listen. Even strangers would walk up and stop to listen to her. And one always felt she knew what was deep in your own heart..pain, anger, sorrow, joy..She definitely had qualiies of the Divine Mother about her.
The Rosary, if said regulary with strong intention, sincere heart and and faith really open hearts. People were always reporting little healing miracles.
posted
Thank you for the link and the clarifications on lectio divina and TM mantra. I copied some of the link about the lectivo divina because they say it so well.
"NEXT TAKE the word or phrase into yourself. Memorize it and slowly repeat it to yourself, allowing it to interact with your inner world of concerns, memories and ideas. Do not be afraid of “distractions.” Memories or thoughts are simply parts of yourself which, when they rise up during lectio divina, are asking to be given to God along with the rest of your inner self. Allow this inner pondering, this rumination, to invite you into dialogue with God.
THEN, SPEAK to God. Whether you use words or ideas or images or all three is not important. Interact with God as you would with one who you know loves and accepts you. And give to Him what you have discovered in yourself during your experience of meditatio. Experience yourself as the priest that you are. Experience God using the word or phrase that He has given you as a means of blessing, of transforming the ideas and memories, which your pondering on His word has awakened. Give to God what you have found within your heart.
FINALLY, SIMPLY rest in God's embrace. And when He invites you to return to your pondering of His word or to your inner dialogue with Him, do so. Learn to use words when words are helpful, and to let go of words when they no longer are necessary. Rejoice in the knowledge that God is with you in both words and silence, in spiritual activity and inner receptivity."
Very inspiroring............
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posted
And yes too expensive in the US now.....His reaoning on that is becaues collectively, people in the US seem to value things they have to pay more for in the country.. I would prefer it be different, but I trust he has his reasons and that they are well intentioned..Perhaps to help teach TM in other countries.
Pauline, you literally gush with apologies for Maharishi, and have yet to acknowledge the deceptiveness of his pedagogical approach (not informing people of the Hindu nature of the practice . . . calling it "non-religious," etc.). Now you excuse his shameless gouging of naive Westerners in the name of his selling something of value, apparently ignorant of the vast financial empire he has built for himself in the process:
quote:What most folks don't know about the maharishi is he's a big real estate investor. According to the United Kingdom's Guardian newspaper, the maharishi's combined real-estate and business holdings total out at $3.6 billion. These days, the maharishi presides over a corporate empire Indian sources have estimated to be worth more than $5 billion -- a sort of Wal-Mart of the spirit, encompassing extensive land holdings in India, hotels in Europe, and publishing houses in the United States.
There's no dialogical, relational dynamic involved, as there is in Lectio Divina. It's about altering brain waves through the use of repetitive sound. That's what concentrative meditation is.
- - -
What's your response to w.c.'s point about you mentioning Jesus' resurrection as "spiritual." Do you also believe that his body was raised from the dead?
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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It's not all TM-oriented, and we note that the price of TM training hasn't gone down as the guru's bottom line has gone up.
Let him who is without sin, be the first to cast a stone..."
I wonder what the net value of the Vatican is now, or was, before all the law suits and cover ups that are closing so many churches?
I wonder HOW LONG the abuses have really been going on?
HOw many altar boys stories never got told?
I wonder how their lives were affected?
Are they gay?, bi-sexual?.. suffering?, suicidal?. Spiritually and emotionally split apart, like the movie Bad Eduction depicts so well? ..Or are they slow suiciders, through addiction like my Dad?
Does anybody else wonder about these things? :
I think these questions might have some link to the church beng so closed to the idea of women being priests myself.
I suppose they could always resort to selling indulgences, or start a Holy Wars to get more converts. But then again, bingos, cakes sales, raffles and church fairs do a good job of keeping the coifures full and the faithful busy with more mundane affairs..and they get to remain in control...
quote:Originally posted by Phil: See http://www.focalpointyoga.com/mantra_meditation.htm There's no dialogical, relational dynamic involved, as there is in Lectio Divina. It's about altering brain waves through the use of repetitive sound. That's what concentrative meditation is.
I keep telling you Phil that WE DO NOT CONCETRATE on the mantra... It is a NO NO !!
And that link is COMPLETELY OFF BASE...Nothining like TM.. The instructions are just like Centering Prayer. only with Mantra and the blessings and wisdom of an ancient Holy Tradition to go with it...
And ANYONE that wants to from ANY relgion, is FREE to pray in ANY WAY,that they want.
posted
The body was not found in the tomb, Jesus resurrected from the dead. I was talking about spiritual resurrection because we are trying to resurect ourselves spiritually. The church says give 10% and they are not cutting any deals. What a roller coaster from the spiritual to real estate to discuss spiritual technique.
Life is not just getting a degree, a good job, settling down or raising a family; it is self-actualization and the finding out who we really are in the resurrection of our every potential.
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w.c.
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As I've tried to relate on recent posts, mantra is primarily a vibration of kundalini through intention, even when the k isn't an object of attention and the sound is only indirectly calming to the mind for other purposes. This is quite different than prayer that seeks first, and only, relationship with God via His uncreated grace which is bestowed beyond the faculties. Prior to graced contemplation, the faculties are drawn together in the heart as one would spontaneously do so, without technique, when spending time with a friend. The only effort is in being with a friend, and therefore it is the friendship that dictates the attachment, rather than an objectifying process of the polarizing faculties where subtle addiction can easily be generated.
I would not put it that we are trying to resurrect ourselves spiritually, however. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that "raises us up." Maybe that's what you meant?
- - -
Wow, Pauline. No one on this site has denied problems in the Church, nor have we been afriad to critically reflect on some of its teaching. You just can't bring yourself to say the tee-tiniest thing critical of Maharishi or TM, though, can you?
And did you even read the link I posted on mantra meditation? That's nothing remotely close to Lectio Divina. So what you're saying is that TM is not a form of mantra meditation? Maybe you're practicing it differently than it's taught? The way my friend who studied under Deepak Chopra described it was very much more along the line that the mantra meditation site above describes. The mantra is repeated until the mind becomes silent, then it is picked up again when thoughts begin to emerge. There's no relational or dialogical dynamic, referencing one to the divine; it's just a technique for calming the mind. I notice that you don't consider it prayer, and that makes sense.
BTW, it's not like there are no concerns about centering prayer, although the way it is taught by Fr. Keating and Contemplative Outreach is not as a mantra, but as a simplified form of relational prayer. We had a long discussion about this and related topics: - http://shalomplace.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000182#000000
[ February 02, 2006, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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PHIL: Wow, Pauline. No one on this site has denied problems in the Church,
PAULINE: Well that's somewhat open to debate as evidenced by:
1. The many lawsuits of Bishops who were trying to cover up the clergy abuse are a strong testimony to the depth and severity of denial about some VERY SERIOUS, life damaging problems in the Church.
2. My mom being turned away for wearing my pants when she went to talk to priest about the sexual abuse of my Dad 40 years ago also gives evidence of it.
3. About a year ago, I called the local diocese 3x's to see if there were any support groups for victims of clergy abuse...,my call was never returned. (once again….3x's a charm ...) I did find an independent group for all denominations. The times I went, there were mostly men there, all them now gay, and several others with histories of sort lived relationships. Most were former altar boys for the Catholic Church. Several of them had eventually confronted their abusers, 2 went through a court battle, as several boys had reported this one priest. But the legal battle sounded hellatious in and of itself, with the Church dragging it's feet the whole way. And more concerned about the priest then the victims. And in most cases, the priest showed no visible sign of remorse if and when confronted. Two of the boys Mothers were good family friends with the abusing priest, and had asked their sons to go with the priest to assist him with church related projects. Can you imagine that? Just think how trapped those boys sense of loyalty would be..
But despite the headlines, and the possible the need for information or discussion for vicitms who might come here looking, I didn’t find any thread on that issue when I searched.
How about a thread on Analyzing What Contribute to Clergy Abuse? I have lots of ideas about it….. **************************
PHIL: nor have we been afraid to critically reflect on some of its teaching.
PAULINE: I must’ve missed these, except the few that WC posted about how immature and dysfunctional priests can be **************************
PHIL: You just can't bring yourself to say the tee-tiniest thing critical of Maharishi or TM, though, can you?
PAULINE: Oh Phil …I am LOL..If you only knew, if you only knew…
Being raised a cradled Catholic I had such HUGE issues about money. I used to feel guilty even buying a new shirt or shoes on sale. or even having dessert, or letting a man spend money on me.. I have gone round the block with some of Maharishis teachings and many other spiritual teachers concerning concepts about money, power, success, etc.
But what I have discovered for myself is that I have to ‘try on” a philosophy or teaching of others before I can give an critical analysis of their choices. And even then, it’s fruitless to direct my attention on them, because it’s ultimately not about them, it’s about me and my choice. I have to determine MY relationship to the ways of the world, and answer only to that. If I criticize and judge them from my own limited concepts, I limit both them and myself. If I love and accept them, I expand my own heart. I was not born with any where near the mission Maharishi was obviously born to do, so how could I possibly understand all his reasons for doing the things he does. There have been 6 million people initiated into TM. And overall I think that’s a been a very positive thing for the majority of people, otherwise it would not have grown so quickly. You think it’s bad… to each is his or her own.
PHIL: And did you even read the link I posted on mantra meditation?
PAULINE : Yes…. I did
******************************************** PHIL: That's nothing remotely close to Lectio Divina.
PAULINE : No, it’s not . But TM IS very much, if not exactly like, the first part of Lectio Divinia....as far as how you say the mantra and come back to it easily,,,, but we let the mantra take us into deep silence
********************************************
PHIL: So what you're saying is that TM is not a form of mantra meditation?
PAULINE: No I said TM is NOT CONCENTRATION meditation Phil..and several times too.. They discourage concentration.
********************************************
PHIL: Maybe you're practicing it differently than it's taught? The way my friend who studied under Deepak Chopra described it was very much more along the line that the mantra meditation site above describes. The mantra is repeated until the mind becomes silent, then it is picked up again when thoughts begin to emerge.
PAULINE: That’s a rather inadequate description of it. I described it above several times. It’s just like the first part of Centering Prayer, as F Keating led it. The sound of his voice, the tempo. letting thought come if the come….then gently just going back to the mantra ( or the sacred word as Keating calls it…) when you become aware you are in you thoughts. ********************************************
PHIL: There's no relational or dialogical dynamic,
PAULINE: Well that depends on how you define “divine” I find deep silence, pure awareness FEELS divine. But yes your correct, the silence is the goal. They tell you that if after you have been in the silence for the 20 minutes or so, and rested, that if you pray, doing so right after meditation is a good time to do it. And that has been my experience.
******************************************** PHIL: it's just a technique for calming the mind.
PAULINE: And DEEP purification of the mind and the body. Over time, there are deeper and deeper concepts of anger, grief, etc… old concepts that can come into the awareness…. But unless there is some really deep trauma, which they try to screen for, if one goes slowly it helps make the ride through life a lot smoother and easier.
********************************************
PHIL: I notice that you don't consider it prayer, and that makes sense.
PAULINE: No I have never thought of it as prayer, but the deep silence enriches prayer.I am glad you are clear on that now. ********************************************
PHIL: BTW, it's not like there are no concerns about centering prayer, although the way it is taught by Fr. Keating and Contemplative Outreach is not as a mantra, but as a simplified form of relational prayer. We had a long discussion about this and related topics: - http://shalomplace.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000182#000000
********************************************
PAULINE: I just had time to glance at those articles, they raise some good concerns about the unconscious which is why there are intake forms asking about ones mental history for learning TM. My own experience with mantra’s is that the sounds are very purifying. And as that is what most of my experiences has been, I may have a bias. But I think they lost something, by not keeping the mantra, and at the very least the 15 to 20 minutes of silence before continuing into the prayer part of Lecto Divina…. It is for me like a cleansing emptying of our vessel of body temple…very feminine and receptive in nature. I’ve done both and much prefer my having the prolonged deep inner silent time first. It seems to me this allows the dialogical, relational aspect of prayer to come from deeper layers of our being.
quote: PHIL: Wow, Pauline. No one on this site has denied problems in the Church,
PAULINE: Well that's somewhat open to debate as evidenced by:
Those are sorry episodes you described, Pauline, and I could add a few of my own. But your response is a non-sequitur. Read the statement by me that you're replying to; your response doesn't connect.
See this thread for an example of some of the critique of clergy abuse issues that has gone on here. And as I've noted, we've also engaged in quite a bit of critical reflection on a number of Church teachings, including birth control, ordination of women, gay issues, and many others. Use the board search tool to do a little research before making assumptions about that.
quote: TM IS very much, if not exactly like, the first part of Lectio Divinia....as far as how you say the mantra and come back to it easily,,,, but we let the mantra take us into deep silence.
Structually, perhaps, but not substantively -- i.e., the dialogical, relational aspect, which is how one proceeds with Lectio. w.c. and I have tried to make this point several times.
quote: No I said TM is NOT CONCENTRATION meditation Phil..and several times too.. They discourage concentration.
I've also tried to explain that "concentration meditation" is a term used in contrast to other genres of medititive practice. You're reacting to the word "concentration" without understanding what "concentrative meditation" is. - see http://www.lifepositive.com/Spirit/meditation/meditation-techniques.asp#concentrative for a good description of concentrative meditation.
Contrast this with other genres, like insight/mindfulness meditation, walking meditation, Zen, and Lectio Divina, which is a relational/dialogical form of mediation.
- - -
I'll be summarizing my thoughts in a brief post on this topic soon, then pretty much signing off unless something new about it comes along.
[ February 03, 2006, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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