Topic: Divinity and consciousness: the differences
w.c.
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So I'd guess that the Eden story suggests each of the "trees" were eventually to evolve into consciousness as our human ancestors surrendered any sense of autonomy outside of God's initiatives. More surrender, more freedom, more surrender . . . . and an increase in consciousness as praise, gratitude and love, free to worship, or fall away as they eventually did. With the fall, kundalini fell downward from the crown, becoming less and less intense, less and less relational, until it lay dormant at the base of the spine, which could be seen to parallel the loss of animism as human societies became agrarian. Jaynes' bicameral man seems to be this animistic, mostly pre-reflective consciousness still imbued with psychic power as the everyday orientation, but unaware that kundalini wasn't God, but mainly archetypal. Stephen points out later in the thread that bicameral man's active psychic faculties intimated the divine, hence the temples of the ancients. Once these powers became dormant in the spine, there is a shift in religious focus: the gods are gone; they've abandoned their human subjects, and every attempt is made via oracles to recover their presence. We see this transition in the Iliad and the Odyssey. The kundalini now begins its imperfect ascent back up the spine, with human beings becoming more oriented around separate self-consciousness and the effort to reach enlightenment.
C.S. Lewis' "Perelandra" does a good job, for me, of describing how this pre-fallen state might have looked, and sounded.
quote:Originally posted by Shasha: ...it is truly amazing that the Holy Spirit can literally be speaking through us in the gift of tongues! I have had that deep experience of absolute knowing, while I've felt led to pray in the Spirit, that what God is speaking through me is literally repairing me or strengthening me up in some profound way that my mind or spirit cannot possibly understand. It's like the HS has to knock you out--your mind and all the inferior intuitions--and bypass your language by replacing it with His! Amazing!)
I am so glad you brought this us, I have been wanting to talk about this for the last few weeks... Paul says that when we pray in tongues the mind is "unfruitful":
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
This is absoultely fascinating! The greek word for "unfruitful" means non-productive... so the mind is not thinking, but surely not "blank"... I think tongues does exactly what you imply in that it enables us to bypass our mind so that we can set our attention on our spirit where Jesus dwells... imo this accomplishes the same thing as a "mantra" in Christian Meditation, and tongues surely is a gift from God for us and acts as a door step to wait for God to bring us the experience of contemplation, the marvelous presence of His Person... tongues is "noisy contemplative prayer" -from Fr. Robert Faricy
posted
Speaking of C.S. Lewis, I have always found him amongst the most fascinating apologist authors. His Mere Christianity is a wonderful, deceptively simple book.
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w.c.
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HP:
Yes, I never tire of him. He was so awake to what he wrote about.
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quote:Originally posted by Caneman: ... 1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
Caneman
Hi Caneman, Very interesting...I hadn't noticed that before. You know, there's a thread on Speaking in Tongues that Phil began some months ago. Have you noticed it? Meet me over there if you want to converse more on this subject.
At the same time, one could see how praying in tongues is an issue of the difference between divinity and consciousness. That is, we know that the HS is literally praying through us and that is a clear manifestation, imo, of divinity, that God--the Holy Spirit--is literally using our faculties to pray His prayers.
So is this "noisey contemplation" a different kind of consciousness in the same way as samadhi is, for instance? I don't think so. I think praying in the Spirit is the expression of the New Creation that Christ's Love is forming in our very souls. In this way, praying in the Spirit is unlike mantra repetition which achieves metaphysical expansion/alteration but does squat nothing for building our Glorified bodies.
Praise God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit!
quote:You know, there's a thread on Speaking in Tongues that Phil began some months ago. Have you noticed it? Meet me over there if you want to converse more on this subject.
I don't think they will mind if we talk about it here, it seems to relate to the OP somewhat...
quote:That is, we know that the HS is literally praying through us and that is a clear manifestation, imo, of divinity, that God--the Holy Spirit--is literally using our faculties to pray His prayers.
I think that when I pray in tongues, it is my spirit that prays... I am not sure that it is the Holy Spirit doing this in me... when I start to pray using these "words", given to me by the Holy Spirit, I don't usually sense the presence of God immediately, but after a while I usually do, and the tongues enables me to maintain a posture of waiting before the Lord without being distracted by thoughts...
quote:So is this "noisey contemplation" a different kind of consciousness in the same way as samadhi is, for instance? I don't think so.
I don't know what a samadhi is... but praying in tongues is not infused contemplation... I think it is really "acquired contemplation" and a type of nondiscursive meditation, and gives us something to do while we wait before the Lord, and if He infuses His presence within our soul wonderful, if not then I have still come before His presence by faith worshiping and adoring Him...
quote:I think praying in the Spirit is the expression of the New Creation that Christ's Love is forming in our very souls. In this way, praying in the Spirit is unlike mantra repetition which achieves metaphysical expansion/alteration but does squat nothing for building our Glorified bodies.
Not really sure what that is, although sometimes it feels like my spirit is getting larger much like the blowing up of a balloon (when we speak in tongues we are "edified" or built up 1 Cor 14:4)!!! All I know is that tongues keeps me from getting distracted when I want to keep a loving attentive gaze on the Lord Jesus who is within me, very much like the slow repetition/meditation of a short verse of scripture... it helps me to "set my mind on the Spirit" (Rom 8:6) to enjoy the life and peace of the Lord... I think as we set our gaze on Him in this way (whether we experience His presence or not) He uses this to transform us (2 Cor 3:18)...
posted
Recently, I had an experience of the difference between the uncreated and created nature, which was very difficult (because of the stay-away-from-me-Lord-for-I'm-a-sinful-man-aspect that we mentioned here already), but I was left with an interesting and transforming insight. I saw (intellectually) that our ability to receive the uncreated fire (=mediation of divinity) is somehow deeply connected to Mary, the Mother of God. I haven't ever had a particular devotion to Her, being mostly focused on Christ, so this was astonishing to me. I knew that it's the unity of the natures in Christ that enables us to be divinized, but now I feel that Mary enables us too. Is there a theological background for this and have you ever experienced this kind of mediation by the Mother of God?
I think it must be somehow connected to the fact that she was perfectly divinized, though she wasn't divine, and that she was a perfect vessel for the Heavenly Fire and for the Son of God, so perhaps that's why she has power to help us to receive the Spirit? Probably, I could do a google search on the dogmatics about Mary, but would rather hear your thoughts...
perhaps, it's still within our subject of divinity and consciousness... not that we are not allowed to deviate...
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Caneman wrote: I think that when I pray in tongues, it is my spirit that prays... I am not sure that it is the Holy Spirit doing this in me... when I start to pray using these "words", given to me by the Holy Spirit, I don't usually sense the presence of God immediately, but after a while I usually do, and the tongues enables me to maintain a posture of waiting before the Lord without being distracted by thoughts...
Caneman, if the sounds are given by the Holy Spirit, then our spirit truly is "praying," even though we don't sense God's presence (which is the case for most prayers; we pray, then we sense God's presence). I'm referring to spontaneous glossalalia, however -- not to anything one does on one's own. In terms of the thread topic (rather than discussing glossalalia per se), it's clear that one is free to stop praying thus at any time . . . that we consent to give utterance. The creature/Creator distinction is honored.
My own spiritual director has been emphasizing the importance of Mary to me for some time.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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w.c.
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" not that we are not allowed to deviate...
And let them eat cake . . .
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mateusz:
Well, here's another area we share that is rather inscrutible except through grace. It must have been just three months ago, before Christmas, that I was given to see Mary for the first time (and I wasn't expecting it, nor did I ask for this blessing). I actually saw her, and heard the words, which didn't come from me, "The Mother of God leads the way." She was unbelievably beautiful, walking through a glade, and as she approached the ground flowered before her. In this locution (I guess that is what it would be called), it was clear that she was unique among all mortals, and now serves an intercessory role for us that is pimary among all the saints.
Apostles and Nicene Creed, yep. Immaculate conception? Well, ontologically speaking, ok, i.e, original sin begs it, but it is not exactly scriptural. Pure, yes, but sinless? Hail Mary, yes, I say it almost daily; it's the prayer I say when someone dies. Somehow it seems of immense value then. But my head just doesn't make the trip by itself to these notions, especially the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.
Here's something from Wiki I had never seen. A fresco dating from the late second century (a church in Rome) of Mary nursing the infant Jesus. Something that early would seem to indicate a veneration going back perhaps to the late first or early second century. Scroll down to the section on the Assumption. On google the link was found under "Mary mother of God."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Mary
Also, Mary's absence in scripture beyond her mention in Acts, present at Pentecost, seems almost redolent. The Gospel of John has her with the Beloved Disciple (disciple John?, Lazarus?, scholars aren't sure), as her son, and, implied, spiritual brother of our Lord. Was she being protected to such a degree that she was not mentioned as other women are in the early years of the church during its intense persecution?
posted
Phil and W.C. - thanks for your responses! I read through the links and this is fascinating, because I have never read about this and it certainly resonates with my vision.
W.C.,
I was moved by your sharing and thankful, I'm happy that you enjoyed this encounter with the Blessed Virgin. My vision was not imaginery, but intellectual, however, accompanied by the feeling of Mary being present and upholding me through the process.
Among the theological notions, the epithet "administra" ("omnium gratiarum administra et dispensatrix") seems to be get very close to the insight I was given by the Lord. I also praise God for enriching our faith and understanding - like for you, W.C., Virgin Mary for me wasn't an important figure in my practice and formation, since with my Zen background even the Holy Trinity is difficult to assimilate intellectually and affectively.
Now, I feel freed from the Eckhartian understanding of "Listen Israel, our God is ONE", and I'm supported by grace in such a way that God allows me to sense differences in the activity of distinct Persons of the Trinity. Of course, I know that it's wrong to think that we can actually experience the distinctness of the Persons, but He can show us different aspects of the Persons to enforce our faith and understanding.
I think the vision of Mary as the Mediatrix and the Administra of Graces has also helped me to go beyond the "unitary" idea of God and to grasp the richness of His action and activity. At first, I couldn't understand why I feel the Blessed Virgin's presence, since it is Her Son that is the Mediator, but now I feel how helping and compassionate she is in my prayer, especially the rosary.
I also liked the phrase by Pope Leo, that Her "power is virtually limitless", because I was afraid that attributing any power to a saint would be diminishing of God's sovereignty. After all, theology can be helpful in our spiritual life, unless we think that our visions are the supreme point of reference (now I have no inclination to such a view).
In those last months I've also experience an important shift in my prayer - a change of my relationship with Jesus, a change towards the relation with the Trinity as a whole, especially the Holy Spirit and the Father, who were virtually absent from my prayer life. It's also interesting process, but I don't know if this is a right place to discuss it.
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w.c.
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Mateusz:
I think we're still exploring related aspects of the thread topic as we consider such mysteries as the communion of saints, Mary's relationship to the church, etc - a kind of natural branching off for Christians. I'd be fine with a new thread too - whatever you want, since we can all begin new threads on our own.
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Very rich sharing about Mary! Unless it wants to be a more extensive discussion, I see a connection in that God not only creates creatures -- Mary, in this case -- but ministers in and through them to the rest of creation. I love this idea, as it includes everyone; we all have a role to play in helping bring forth the reign of God, and we do so even though we are creatures and not God. That's all so much richer than any pantheistic notion.
Re. Mary and the Assumption -- this is very significant, in that she, like Jesus, enjoys the fullness of resurrection. A resurrected body has no impediments to communicating the life of God -- a very powerful being, indeed! (W.C., I'm not seeing a denial of the Assumption in the articl you linked to.)
[ February 05, 2009, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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w.c.
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Phil:
Right . . . I think the article was pointing out that the Orthodox Church celebrates Mary's death and her resurrection, whereas we RC's only celebrate her resurrection by Christ (Do we mean resurrection when we say "Assumption," or is something else implied?). Apparently this wasn't always the case in the RC church, i.e, her death being celebrated at one time.
posted
I don't have almost none experience in glossolalia, and I didn't follow your discussions about it on this thread, but this night I had a very strange dream in which I actually prayed in a strange tongue. Earlier during the day I was watching "the Passion" by Mel Gibson, so the sound of Arameic might have sneaked into my dream. It was a dream but it felt like I was awake at that moment of the dream, and the praying experience was quite powerful. I still sense the impact of it in me, somehow. Have you ever spoke in tongues in a dream, like that?
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quote:Originally posted by mateusz: Have you ever spoke in tongues in a dream, like that?
Yes, I have, although it was not the time I initially started to pray in tongues... I think the Holy Spirit has given you this gift... by faith just start "using it", and let Him teach you how to best use it...
Right . . . I think the article was pointing out that the Orthodox Church celebrates Mary's death and her resurrection, whereas we RC's only celebrate her resurrection by Christ (Do we mean resurrection when we say "Assumption," or is something else implied?). Apparently this wasn't always the case in the RC church, i.e, her death being celebrated at one time.
Right. The "dormir" means literally her "sleeping." Whether she died then was raised a split second later doesn't make much difference, I don't believe. If she was free from Original Sin, then she would have been in the same state as Adam and Eve, and so would have experienced death as they would have -- maybe a conscious "passing over." I have no idea.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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mateusz
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I don't know if this is a good place for this subject, but I'll give it a try .
Shasha and W.C. mentioned occasionally locution experiences and that's what I'd like to talk about. I remember quite well what STA wrote about three kinds of inner words - from the demons, from ourselves and from God, and how to tell them apart, but I don't find it that useful.
I get from STA an idea that God's words inside are like an earthquake - she says that they become imprinted for ever and that they immediately have some impact; she give an image of Jesus silencing the storm etc. But I wonder if there are also other kinds of God's words or is it automatically the unconscious. At times I hear inner voice, almost always during a deep prayer.
(1) it feels like not coming from me (it's different from thoughts and even "voices" known to me from the "voice dialogue" method by Hal/Sidra Stone)
(2) I know that it can be just something archetypal from the unconscious (that's my guess) - hence the feeling of "not from myself". I can't make it happen or force it to speak.
(3) the voice never says anything against the Gospel or the Church's teaching and it brings me closer to God. So I ruled out the demonic source.
(4) I don't remember many of the sayings, they just go away and don't stick. I only remember those very important to me.
(5) The voice is very helpful in the spiritual life - gives advices, supports, or just assures me of God's love.
(6) I can sometimes engage in a dialogue with it and the voice answers my questions.
(7) sometimes it has a "masculine", sometimes a "feminine" quality (which at first I immediately connected to the Holy Virgin Mary).
(8) It says those words as if "from God's pov", I mean it wouldn't say "God loves you", but rather "I love you". It was what made me think at first it comes from God.
(9) I experienced it only twice before, but since about a month it's become more often - closely connected to infused prayer.
Ok, I try to be very sceptical, because I don't want to end in any "talks with God" in three volumes... But I thought maybe you could help me, with your experience, to clarify this phenomenon a bit. How to tell the difference between the unconscious and God? Is it even possible at all times?
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mateusz, this is a great sidebar to the topic -- maybe even a new one, on "Discerning inner voices," or something like that. Would you be willing to copy/paste it and start us off with a new topic? I think it's an important one.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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HeartPrayer
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Mateusz, that’s a fascinating post! I would love to hear you and others expand on it.
I think your point 3 is a key one! I.e. that it’s healthy to judge such voices and dialogues based on their intrinsic nature and the fruits they bear.
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w.c.
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Some of my thoughts on some of the recent threads begun by mateusz should probably have gone here:
So to continue perhaps solitary musings on how nondual systems fail to notice their own blind spots, or where grace is needed to see the source of awareness as more than the immanent expression of the Divine as the ground of being . . . .
My understanding of "ground of being" is that it is the most fundamental energetic basis within creation, or a template where the pattern for life forms is generated and sustained by the Creator whose loving nature overflows in that act of creation, which is the beginning not only of time and space, but of consciousness itself.
Although deficient from a Christian metaphysical pov, I like some of the descriptions by Kabbalists, where God is said to have withdrawn the "Absolute All" from one place and allowed a void to appear, in which the mirror of existence could be manifested (Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi, "Kabbalah: Tradition of Hidden Knowledge"). This mirroring void would be, in my view, where God's immanence is expressed, or visible, since creation arises in its multiplicity of forms through this template, or the foundation for manifestation. This might be where the non-dualists experience their blind spot: rightly seeing the mirroring of created consciousness, or awareness, as co-arising with the immanence of God known within those created forms, but assuming this co-arising as without cause. Forms and awareness co-arise within this Void created by God; hence from the non-dual pov, awareness is also essentially empty and luminous, mirrored by the energetic luminosity of forms also considered "empty." God outside of this mirroring void is impossible to know or experience, unless of course He chooses to make Himself known by entering time and space in a way that isn't like having created that space-time universe out of nothing.
The multiplicity of forms, all born through this Void, or ground of being, out of which space and time arise as the primary conditions of created existence, also are distinct beings, and even kinds of beings, and for specific reasons having to do with the way they were created, may not be able to know each other. Angels can know humans, but humans cannot know angels unless angels grace them with such knowing. Humans and animals can know each other, and much more so than the knowing shared between insects and humans, or plants and humans. The ability of humans to know angels without the latter's consent and empowerment is similar to the inability of inorganic matter to know sentient life unless the latter transforms such matter into itself through ingestion. Rough, imperfect analogies in need of scrutiny . . . . .
But if something like this is true, we can see in another way how human enlightenment is limited to its own template, or the way in which it is structured fundamentally within the ground of being. As such, humans cannot see the ground of being, or template, of angels. To do so would be annihalation of the soul, unless God ordained it, as may have been the case with Enoch, per some traditions. This limitation is said to apply to all levels of angelic being, where even the Seraphim, always in His direct Presence, have wings to hide their eyes.
And so the ground of being has different levels or templates/facets for different kinds of creatures. Shasha saw the ground of being only as it relates immediately to human knowing and being. However, this experience didn't seem to require supernatural grace, as it occured within Shasha's own template. Angels probably saw this happen. Rocks probably didn't notice at all. All belong to God, but all know and are known differently as created beings in co-arising presence.
Because the ground of being doesn't create out of nothing, and is void for the purpose of being this template for forms not creating themselves, there is no self-other relationship in the ground of being seen for itself by creatures. Only the forms themselves manifest the self-communicating act of God's love to us as creation. And so the void is form to God, but luminous emptiness to us. We lose our sense of relationship where void and awareness merge, and hence also lose the sense of God's presence as personal, just as self and other drop away in perception.
So angels can grace a human being to see them, but not from their own pov as this would be accessing the angel's template within the ground of being. We are given to know God from the pov of the second person of Trinity as the Trinity has no ground of being, yet is eternally deifying humanity in the Son.
. Shalom Place
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It's like the HS has to knock you out--your mind and all the inferior intuitions--and bypass your language by replacing it with His! Amazing!) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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