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Just to throw a "joker" in the mix . . . the Catholic Church teaches that your spiritual soul is already immortal, so that's not the primary concern of religion or spirituality. It's how you develop your immortal soul that is the issue at stake. Also, there's no question of any kind of immortality to this body. We will all die, and everyone who was ever born has also died--even Jesus! There is no way to make your mortal body immortal, although you can do some things to keep it healthy, prolong your life, etc. In the end, however, the physical body falls away.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:You seem like a poet. Any mystic poets figuring into your science? Rumi, Kabir, Tagore, Rilke?
Thank you Michael, I have smithed a poem or two in my day . But sadly I have no idea who those guys are that you are naming. I spent my life in meditation. I will tell you this though, You find something that they have said that you want to understand and I will explain it to so that you so that you do if you wish.
Katy I agree with you! And there is just no getting around that what you said, it is right. It is just that I am trying to approach things from the mechanics of things. The science in Yoga (Union with God) Science means "Everyone who "does" it will get the same results." Predictability. The question starts to be "does" what? The ancient Hatha yoga masters said that if you follow their method that you could achieve physical immortality in seven years. But of course nobody really knows their complete method because they wondered off and like everything else, oral and written history gets changed or lost. And it was suppose to have taken one of the Siddha masters over 300 years to become immortal and wandered off and how he and the others did it is lost. And then we have the Fae (Fairy Folk) they were real and immortal and wandered off and how they did it is lost. We have a few legends about them and most of these legends are northern European where these people lived. Some of the old folks in the Bible became immortal and wandered off.
So the question now is, "Is there a system, or maybe several different systems, that everyone can do if they wish and get the same results (science)?"
Legend and history is full of clues, but the only way that you can understand those clues is after you have done it at least to some extent. I don't want to be physically immortal, and I don't even what to participate in life, but after years of meditatave prayer I know how it is done. And I am experiencing the process. Katy, I did it the way that you said it could be done. Faith and trust in the Love of the Lord and persistence in seeking him.
Here is my dilemma, should I try to share this knowledge with other people? Is it even possible for me to do this? And there is nothing in this for me, I have already found what I was seeking, union with God. And if anybody ever takes me seriously I (and my family) will never have a quiet moment for years and that is if I (we)survive the experience. I don't have a Heavenly body yet. There are billions of dollars being made in todays world off of religion. I am a threat to that (poor yoga folk, out yogied by an American yogi). I am you know. Guys this is my last message board, fair enough. When you guys get tired of talking to me I am going to go find something else to do. Love, John
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caveyogi, can you point to any conclusive evidence that any yogi has attained physical immortality. Color me skeptical on that point.
No need to quit posting. Things are a little slow here sometime, but feel free to share whatever you like and invite whatever discussions you want to be part of. It's nice having you here.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Phil: Just to throw a "joker" in the mix . . . the Catholic Church teaches that your spiritual soul is already immortal, so that's not the primary concern of religion or spirituality. It's how you develop your immortal soul that is the issue at stake. Also, there's no question of any kind of immortality to this body. We will all die, and everyone who was ever born has also died--even Jesus! There is no way to make your mortal body immortal, although you can do some things to keep it healthy, prolong your life, etc. In the end, however, the physical body falls away.
Phil, Actually I partially agree with this. When I say immortality of the physical body, I mean, it is a body like Jesus' resurrection body... not totally a spiritual body, but not the same physical body either.
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Well I think pretty much the same way as Katy. The way I would explain it is that the immortal state of being is a state where your bodies from subtle to gross are in perfect union and you as a perfectly unified and integrated being is in a perfect union with God (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit). Your physical body is completely transformed and the borders between the physical and spiritual kind of fades away.
-------------------- "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." Posts: 16 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2005
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T.T., Katy and caveyogi, are you all suggesting that this kind immortal resurrected body can be developed through the practice of yogic methods? It almost sounds like you're saying that. Deepak Chopra is certainly saying as much.
Yet, again, where is the evidence that anyone has ever actually accomplished this? Aside from the anecdotal and highly mythical references to babaji and similar stories, I don't think there's any evidence at all.
It doesn't matter to me if you all believe this. My own belief is that it's not really possible, and that the full integration of the body in the Spirit is accomplished through our union with the risen body of Christ . . . that he is the one who raises us up . . . after we first die.
[ September 20, 2005, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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Thanks Phil for making me welcome! I am in the middle of your ministry and I am way out there in "Non Orthodox" and we and everbody here knows it.
And Phil to my knowledge there is no conclusive evidence, none The Bible says that Christians are suppose to be able to do stuff, the yogi history says that they are suppose to be able do stuff, and legend says that there was alot of folks that could do stuff. But there is no evidence of anybody doing it NONE ! Ain't life grand!
And then along comes JOHN They haven't been able to pin anybody down for at least two thousand years and yet, I claim to know.
And if I teach how it can be done...you are going to be a Christian! Or they are going to have to talk to the anti christ, I am sure that he will have a system, but good luck with it.
Now just for fun there is also a way that the ancients had that used simple gadgets that you could wear that worked as "pacemakers" for the immune system, for extended life spans. Medical science is going to have a ball with those buggers. The problem is that they are not expensive and everybody can have one. That one started with a simple question, "Father God, why is the unkh the symble of life?" The pharmaceutical (Hey Michael my speller is still working )people are not going to be happy about that technology. And there is more, but it has to do with science, not Jesus.
So with that said, thank you Phil for letting me nest in this topic, And I want it perfectly known that my immortal soul is in jeopardy if I ever do you or anybody here wrong and I take that seriously. I love our Lord and Savior (and Father God). Love, John
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The Bible says that Christians are suppose to be able to do stuff, the yogi history says that they are suppose to be able do stuff, and legend says that there was alot of folks that could do stuff. But there is no evidence of anybody doing it NONE ! Ain't life grand!
I guess it depends what kind of stuff you mean. The Bible doesn't speak of people being able to avoid death and attain any kind of immortality for the body. Even if one could manage such a feat, I don't think it would be the same kind of resurrected body revealed by Christ.
And then along comes JOHN They haven't been able to pin anybody down for at least two thousand years and yet, I claim to know.
OK, I'm trying to follow, here. What is it you claim to know? How to integrate body and spirit unto immortality? Using immune system "pacemakers," as you call them? I'm open to all sorts of alternative methods of care, but that seems quite a claim you're making. People would be quite happy to have such a device, pharmaceutical companies notwithstanding (conspiracy theory alert! ). And if this all has to do with science, then bring it on.
I'm not being a stickler about "orthodoxy" in dialoguing with you about this . . . just trying to see where you're coming from.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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Phil I love you! You are wise and have a wonderful heart and are truly a man of God! Actually I agree with you I don't expect to recieve a heavenly body until Jesus returns. What we are actually playing for here is extended life spans. The immortals are not really immortal, they just live a really long time and they have the ability to wonder off to somewhere else.
So let me drift this by you and everyone just for fun: Heaven and earth are both a part of creation. And God was "not" in creation "when" He created it. So there is a reality that is beyond Creation And we as the adopted childern of God have the ability to join Him there, but only through the Sacrifice and Salvation of His Son our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ. What we are calling Heaven is a part of Creation and Earth is a part of creation. Jesus is in the Heaven part of Creation and we are in the Earth part of Creation and what we are calling immortals are folks that can be in the Heaven part or the Earth part, as they wish. But they are still in Creation and Creation is not immortal.
Now here I have to run my "opinion": I think that Creation is a womb for God's babies. I think that Satan screwed things up and we are all stuck here. And I think that Jesus is the only "Path" out. The problem is freewill, we have to of our own freewill seek the "Path" out. The problem is the "shinys", all we see are the "shinys". Satan has strewn so many "shinys" out into Creation that our will is sidetracked by "shinys". We can't see the "Path" for the "Shinys". The question then becomes, "How do we work our way out of the "shinys"?" And what is funny is that the "shinys" aren't even real. But to us they are real. And the most difficult "shiny" of all is our concept of "self".
Hey Michael how is that for getting out there where words are thin? Love, John
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You are self taught through years of practice. I just read the books and have a long history of mental, emotional, spirutual and physical maladies to recommend me. Keep talking...please!
Don't worry about Phil. He is the only person I've met who scored 100% Catholic on beliefnet's survey. That might make him seem just a tad bit eccentric!
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Michael you are way too much fun ! I liked you in the old days and I like you now! All you need is somebody to keep you on your toes. I know what you are doing you are reading all that stuff that everybody else did so that you don't have to do it ! So then along comes me and says that you have to go do it, reading about it just ain't going to cut it. Don't we just hate that when that happens ?
The thing is I value Phil's and everybody's input. I am not know all, see all, and have total thought. I act like it but I am not . But I do have a pretty good attachment to the "Intuitive Mind" and "Happyness is a good question". And the gift of true conversation is understanding the other person's language. And when two or more people understand how each other thinks, then "dialog" (everytime is use my speller Michael I think of you and probably will for the rest of my life ) can be created.
Personally I think that Phil is right about true immortality and personally I think that if you are a Christian and love Jesus that it will all get sorted out somewhere. But in the mean time here is what we are up against: Christianity is loosing ground guys and the question is, "Why?"
When I was in my early twenties I saw Christians moving to "Yoga Stuff" to find God. So I said to Jesus, "You are The Master, please teach me "Yoga Stuff"." I wanted to be a yogi for Jesus. Thirty two years later here I am and I know about yogi stuff and about a bunch of some other stuff, but the world has changed . Everything is fragmenting. Christians are fragmenting, yoga is fragmenting, science is fragmenting, society is fragmenting. Everything is fragmenting.
Michael you go out to study written wisdom and if you study it enough you come to the conclusion that nobody agrees on anything. So that brings us back to, forget about what is outside the temple. It is what is inside the temple that is real. You can not look into the Face of God and live. This is because God is outside of you. When God is inside of you, you can not look at His Face because He is looking out through yours. Fragmentation ceases. Love, John
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caveyogi and others, the only real concern I have about people trying to cultivate an "immortal" physical body is that they could easily get caught up in a massive delusion. Not one single Christian saint or mystic has attained this, nor is there more than anecdotal information from other religions. Indeed, both Buddhism and Christianity encourage reflection on the reality of death/mortality as a gateway to wisdom. Death teaches us to value the time we have, and to recognize the transient nature of life. When I consider people doing metaphysical gymnastics to try to squeeze a few more years out, or, worse, to try to make their physical bodies immortal, I think they've got their focus in the wrong place. It might even be that they are into self-sufficiency and control in insidious ways, convinced that they are into spirituality, instead.
I resonate with your viewpoints overall, caveyogi. It sounds like you've been around the block a few times and have learned some good lessons about the Christian mysteries. I could quibble about heaven being part of creation and a few other things, but I don't sense that you're wanting feedback about that.
You do ask why Christianity is losing ground. I'm not sure it is, numerically, that is. In terms of its values informing society, that's a tougher one, as even the values that many secularists deem to be "self-evident" ultimately derive from Judeo-Christian sources.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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"I say old freind or new freind, not much difference, we are all the same, we are all human beings." -Dalai Lama
We're just picking up the conversation where we left off. I have many relationships like that.
An interesting observation from all traditions is that sometimes mystics know when they are about to go, or "drop their body" or whatever, and seem to choose the moment themselves. David Hawkins says that many "go home" when they reach calibration 600, or enlightenment, when they no longer identify with their body. I wonder if this happened to Anthony DeMello. I can only speculate, but he might well have reached that point. When someone gets into the high 500s or the 600s, they tend to live apart from others. Caveyogis?
Phil takes my ribbing in good spirits. By all means keep it Catholic, as I am only part way into the mine and finding rich veins of ore, from your own wonderful self and many others. It is such a rich tradition! Ask Doctor Phil: if he don't know he know who do!
I scored 100% Bahai the last time, so I may have become so open minded that my brain leaked out, perhaps out my ear whilst I slept.
85% Conservative Protestant 85% Liberal Protestant 75% Roman Catholic
I'll trade you a Billy Graham card for a John Paul II or a Ramana Maharshi! Better call the patent office, I just had a capital idea, mystic trading cards!
-------------------- "This is the way of peace: overcome evil with good, and falsehood with truth, and hatred with love...
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Buddhism has a concept of Rainbow Body (Light Body), a phenomenon in which the corpses of highly developed spiritual individuals reputedly vanish within days of death. Personally I believe that this phenomenon is the same thing what happens when physical immortality (extremely extended life span) is achieved. There are cases where people have witnessed this phenomenon.
David Steindl-Rast, a Benedictine monk has done some investigation on the subject of Rainbow Body. Here's an interesting article about it.
-------------------- "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." Posts: 16 | From: Finland | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:caveyogi and others, the only real concern I have about people trying to cultivate an "immortal" physical body is that they could easily get caught up in a massive delusion.
Matthew 16:19, "For whoever wishes to save his life shall loose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it." It is a "Catch 22" an extended life span is a side effect, not a goal! And in Matthew 16:28 Jesus goes on to say, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man comming in His Kingdom." Some of those people are still here, they are just being quiet about it.
When I was first stepped into oneness with God by Babaji I went to a Kriya Yoga message board to share the news with them. They told me that if that was true, then I was physically immortal, if what I said was true. I had no idea that that was part of what happens, I just wanted to be at one with God.
Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Phil, other than that I have no idea what is going on, Ok?
quote:I could quibble about heaven being part of creation and a few other things, but I don't sense that you're wanting feedback about that.
Phil you know about the Christian mysteries, I don't. If there is a correlation between my experience as a Christian mystic and the Christian mysteries, this makes me happy. And I want "Feedback" on everything. Other wise how can I learn? And you are a teacher. Love, John
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Mystic trading cards you might be on to something there Michael! I think your main problem is going to be copyrights. I think that everything that everybody has said is copyrighted. Hey Michael I am the only free mystic that you have got nothing that I have ever written is really copywrited! But then at the same time most folks would consider my mystical writing "Really Left Field", if even in the ball park which is ok I don't mind, I am not really real until I am real.
In the meantime I have to live with a "cursed spiller", And I am extremely handycapped with out my Franklin Spelling Ace (fully charged). It is funny Micheal how you hit upon one of my worst fears, "No speller". Love, John
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caveyogi, the "heavens" Genesis speaks of would be the sky. There was no teaching about heaven in the way we understand it at that time. For most Jews until around the 3rd C. B.C., when you died that was it. Something like a shadow of who you were descended to Sheol, which is similar to our understanding of Hell, but without the demons and suffering.
The Christian "heaven" is a realm of being opened to the human race (and by extension, all creation) through Christ's suffering, death and resurrection. This might sound like a created "place," but it's more a sharing in God's life. Hence, heaven and "eternal life" (uncreated life) are spoken of in the New Testament and Christian theology.
quote:"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man comming in His Kingdom." Some of those people are still here, they are just being quiet about it.
I sincerely doubt it. There are a couple of interpretations that might be helpful, here. One is that the early Church thought Jesus would come very soon; another is that he was referring to the resurrection. Either way, it doesn't follow that Jesus was implying that some people would live for centuries until his glorious second coming. He's very clear in other passages that the seed of the body has to fall to the ground and die before it sprouts to eternal life (see Jn. 12: 24).
The resurrected life brought by Jesus is not simply an extension of human life, nor does it seem to be another kind of "rainbow body" experience. It's a whole new relationship between matter and spirit -- something of an inversion of the present situation, only suffused with the Spirit of God.
[ September 22, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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John 12:24, "Truly truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."
Phil based on my experience as a Christian mystic, it is the "death of self" that brings us into "much fruit".
The "Dark Night of the Soul" stuff. Incouraging others to worship "constantly" in the temple is going to bring about death before much fruit. Psalms 23, "Though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I fear no evil; for Thou art with me;" But you do die, that which is you, that we all know and love, dies. But you do it anyway. And that which is bad fruit is stripped away and that which is good fruil is multiplied. This is why that Heaven is like a seed that falls on shallow ground and only grows for a little while. Most people won't go through this death. Ask MysticalMichael if he will This is just my version Phil, we are just in a Shalom Place of Discussion Ok? I want to know you version and am happy that you are willing to share it with me. Love, John
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Phil I think that what you are considering Heaven is real. But I also think that (and please correct me if I am wrong) Paradise and the seven levels of Heaven are a part of Creation, something to be worked out of. How does your knowledge/understandings, understand this concept, in an feed back way? Love, john
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John, I agree that there can be a way of looking at passages like Jn. 12: 24 in terms of a death of self, but if you read on you will see that Jesus is speaking of his "hour" that is coming soon -- the time of his death. In many other passages, he spoke of his death in a most literal sense as the passage he had to go through before being "raised up on the third day."
It's tempting to interpret the Christian mysteries through yogic and Buddhist lenses, and some interesting things can come from that, to be sure. But when it comes to the core issues -- namely the death and resurrection of Jesus, and what was "accomplished" through them -- it doesn't quite translate into a kind of analogy for the death of the false self and rising of the true. That's part of the Christian journey, for sure, but we also give witness to a historical dimension of these truths -- i.e., they really did happen, and in a most unique way for Jesus. He's not simply extending the life of the body he was born with; even that has been transformed in a marvelous manner.
So going back to rainbow bodies, which was mentioned earlier as a kind of parallel, or even something similar to resurrection. I don't know whether rainbow body occurrences really happen, but it's conceivable that a very holy person could have such a powerful impact on all they are in contact -- especially their own body -- so as to effect a transformation of some kind. That might even be the case with the "incorruptible" Christian saints and mystics, whose bodies did not decompose, and which give sweet aromas. In the case of Jesus, however, it goes far beyond that, as he didn't simply transform his body to spirit, but joins himself to the race through this risen body, which he can use to manifest as he so wills. He is a new Adam, in this sense, and not simply a great yogi like the others that Hinduism has produced.
Re. all the levels of heaven and whether they're part of creation . . I'll pass on that one. That's an area about which we can only speculate, not that it isn't fun doing so.
Shalom. Phil
[ September 23, 2005, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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As far as spiritual death, I wish I'd never heard about any of this and it's very pain-full. Ouch!
About six years ago I saw a musty old book called Abandonment to Divine Providence in a church library. The Big Book from AA said to "abandon yourself to God as you understand God," so I got onto this path and it will have it's way with me, for better or for worse.
I'm great-full you are here to stimulate Phil. I'd hate to see him get bored and leave.
I'm gonna enjoy the interaction betwixt U2.
(A note about the spelling. I have some cognitive problems and dementia due to poor health. Thanks for putting up with me.)
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Phil that is what I wanted to know. Michael I am not sure that I am going to be a challenge for Phil About the only thing that we have left would be the Catholic Saints. And that is thin So how about this just for fun:
If everthing in the Bible only refers to Jesus being able to do things and directly to Him only, then there is no reason for us to seek. He was the only one who could do it and He was "not" an example of what we also could do, through Him and God's Holy Spirit.
John 14:16-20 "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He maybe with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot recieve, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will behold me no more; because I live, you shall live also. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in me, and I in you."
John 14:26 "But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring you to remembrance all that I have said to you"
So why would Jesus send the Holy Spirit to us if He was coming back physically anytime soon. And why would He send us the Holy Spirit to teach us "all things" if we were not able to learn all things. And some where it also says "When you are fully trained," (but I don't know where that scripture is). And maybe this:
John 15:4 "Abide in Me, and I in you as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me."
John 7:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you. By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."
We seem to have two schools of thought on things: 1) Nothing can happen until Jesus comes back, and only Jesus could do those things. And 2) We can do wonderous things "now" if Jesus abides in us and we are helped by the Helper, that also abides in us, that he sent us. And I think the concept of "If you believe," also comes into play. Because if you don't believe, then everything comes to a screeching halt. I don't know, what do you think? Love, John
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Eyes on God and not on man. We've all done enough work around here to avoid any superstar competition of the mystic egos and all that.
90% of people aren't into what we go into in these threads, but that can lead to humility, since the responsibility to that 90% is so great.
I was giving you a compliment. I see you as raising the consciousness of our group mind. We're all one.
John is a more important gospel in modern times. Many an evangelical outreach, Catholic and Protestant, have been printing up those gospels and distributing them by the millions. This is a recent development in Christianity, happening since the 60's. I see it as a healthy trend, as it's the mystical gospel. I don't know what it means, but it fills me with wonder, mystery and awe, and the parts I feel that I do understand are quite wonder-full.
. Shalom Place
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