posted
Okay, so I've been experiencing kundalini symptoms -the jerking around, unexplained laughing and crying and emitting various musical notes which seem (to my untrained ear) to match up with my chakras, in addition to some spontaneous Yoga poses. All this only happens while I'm meditating, and for a short time afterwards. Or when I'm in church, come to think of it. Oops, and also if I read the bible or other things that speak reverently about God. Or while listening to devotional music. Wow - looking at this makes it seem like its happening all the time, but it's not really. But its all been lessening of late - partially because I haven't been meditating lately, as an experiment, and because I've been rather desperately trying to get my practical, material world stuff in order (eg. like trying to find a job). And the Kundalini energy seems to be going back to sleep. These dramatic and to me, novel and interesting symptoms seem to be happening less and less often, and less intensely. And my problem is - I miss it! Should I be trying to wake her back up? Or just let this whole magnificent experience just slide away, and go back to being a normal, simple church-goer and Christian? As much as I've enjoyed this process, it's also definately had its scary moments. And reading this board (which I'm so grateful for, by the way) and other sources make it seem like the Kundalini process can be quite agonizing, although I haven't really experienced it that way. Do I leave it alone and go back to comfortable but boring normalcy? Or do I begin meditating again? Thanks for reading...
Posts: 3 | From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
Hi buttercup. I understand what you're saying, and am guessing you miss the quality of aliveness that comes when the energy is stirred, even though it can be a bit of a bucking bronco, at times.
What I'd suggest is to focus more on what helps to deepen your relationship with God, and let the energy work itself out in that context. Hard to say what, specifically, that would mean for you, however. That's for you to decide, maybe in dialogue with a spiritual director.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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mateusz
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posted
Phil, recently, I came accross your words about the interactions between conceptualizing spiritual journey and kundalini effects. In fact, it helped me to understand a bit something that happens to me. I'd say I experience kundalini very mildly (thank God!). But I noticed that when I read too much about theology or spirituality I feel a certain pain or tension in my mind - it's not physically localized, but it's there. I used to think it was because of the tensions in my dual Zen-Christian spirituality, but not. I experienced it too recently while reading James Arraj's (btw, excellent) book on the East-West dialogue. I think it has something to do with intellectual, theological approach to spirituality. But for example reading things like Helminiak or some of your book, or even Bernadette Roberts (I finally ordered her Experience of No-Self), doesn't hurt me. So I guess it's a certain level of intellectual abstraction mixed with spiritual subject that makes it happen. I was a bit afraid it might influence or hinder my work as a scholar, but I suppose it wont'. Actually, I remember writing my thesis on Plotinus in nearly two months, working for hours in a state of great clarity and concentration, almost without an awareness of the body. I used to "wake up" from writing, feeling hungry as hell, because I was so in the flow. Probably not very healthy way. After such work I felt so much energy and light in my head that I couldn't sleep until morning. It was a very pleasent experience. But when I deal with contemporary spirituality, Christian, Buddhist, non-dual, Wilber whatever, it can be pretty tiring and painful. So now I want to be more mindful about it and just stop when there's a feeling of "too much". What particularly rang a bell for me in your description what sth like that you read and you start to think if you understand it correctly etc. - sth of the sort. I have a similar experience - I simply start to feel that I can't understand the subject of the text, that it's too complicated, and I even stop to understand what I already know, and all those concepts seem completely empty and off for me, so eventually I feel like a child who doesn't understand anything about God, consciousness and so on. I had this when I wrote my posts for BR thread and for divinity and consciousness as well. I wrote there that I felt I couldn't figure it out, and that was true. When I read now what I wrote then it seems quite coherent, but when I was thinking it, it just seemed completely crazy:). So this is strange, and finally I came to understand it better. I don't know if your experience was similar, but what I understood of it, helped very much I wonder how kundalini works in scholars. Perhaps, because they choose to be scholars, it lets them conceptualize when this is needed, maybe even enhancing the process. It wouldn't seem right if kundalini prevented us from doing our job, would it?
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mateusz, I experience exactly the same thing you describe -- even from the writings of my dear friend, Jim Arraj. Same goes for another of my friends who posts here, Johnboy. There is this pressure in the brain, then an imbalance, with the right brain literally "drying up." It's been pretty bad, at times, so much so that I can't do much serious theological reading at all. There was a time in my life when I could, and I still enjoy it in small doses, but the more removes the discussion becomes from life experience, the worse it gets.
My general take on this is that thinking is formative of how energy flows in one's being. When we think too long and intensely along a certain line that is excessively left-brainish (e.g., clarifying the relationships among concepts), then there's a shift in how one's energy is patterned and flows. It can take awhile for this to re-balance -- sometimes two or three days of mind-fasting, in my case. It's also very painful, at times, in ways that are hard to describe -- something akin to a migraine, but not quite.
I've read in places where those who travel the contemplative way have difficulty with discursive meditation, and I think this is the sort of thing they've had in mind. I would not say, however, that I have difficulty reading Scripture and taking a message from it, but that's not quite the same.
As you note, there's some mystery about this. I was able to read the scholarly Helminiak with no problems, but my own understanding was that his writings were validating of my own understanding and experience. I think if one is blessed with charisms of knowledge and wisdom, the K should do just fine to support these ministries. Even so, however, one will need to pay close attention to how different writers affect the brain. I read much less than I used to, and often benefit very little from doing so. More than ever, I'm inclined to see language and concepts as primarily tools to name and clarify experiences -- a pragmatic, linguistic, utilitarian view, I guess. For others, concepts are like living things to be understood and organized in philosophical systems that convey real meaning and knowledge (e.g., philosophy, theology). The more removes these systems are from experience, the less sense they make to me. When I read some of this stuff sometimes, I have no idea what the author is talking about, and when I concentrate to try to understand, I get these weird brain-freezes.
[ March 17, 2009, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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There is no need for the kundalini once you surrender to christ. I had an powerful kundalini awakening in 2004 which put me into very expanded states of consciousness, but because i was baptized (i mean the real baptizm, not the empty gesture of a priest) by christ in 2003 the kundalini was controlled by the holy spirit and i expierenced the infilling of christs love and the guidance of jesus at the same time.
When i reached a certain stage of surrender christ stopped the kundalini and removed it completly from my system. I was told that the kundalini is not necessary anymore and that the holy spirit supercedes the kundalini by far. (meaning, it will do the same and much more than the kundalini could have done).
The kundalini in itself cleares personal attachments (this is called karmic purification)and by that merges male and female energies within you. This expandes your consciousness from the physical to the energetic plane where you perceive nonduality. But!!! it will not! bring you to christ/god!! It just expands your consciousness.
The "holy spirit process" (for a lack of better words) is more calm, but the aliveness comes back when you have allowed christ to purify you. But instead of experiecning just expansion (like the kundalini would bring) you will be filled with christs love on a constant basis. Christ is the only way to god.
So focus only on christ and surrender attachments to the kundalini and jesus will guide to new wonderful experiences. As phil said, seek relationship with god. This is only done by surrnder into christs open arms.
it sounds right to me. Although, you probably know that some people don't feel like K is replaced by HS, but that HS is using K. I think it's Phil's experience, and to a certain extent, also mine. I think I can tell apart HS energy from K energy, but sometimes I just feel embraced and purified, and I respond with my whole being, body, chakras, kundalini, sexuality, affectivity, cognition, it's all there in contemplation. but, of course, the relationship is crucial, for those who want to follow Jesus into the Heart of the Trinity. And sometimes I choose to e.g. let go of beautiful colorful lights or the K type of seeing to follow the Love to its source with all my heart and will. You probably know what I'm talking about.
Btw, you think a sacrament of baptism is "an empty gesture of a priest"? - the expression struck me, I must admit. Perhaps, you could explain it a bit?
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mateusz
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posted
Phil,
I was just working at this artice I write, and it was like two hours or something, very conceptual work. And now I stopped, because the pain came again. It's not big, but could be, if I didn't stop. What's interesting, for me it's not a pressure in the brain, but it's localized in the throat, but not physically, more in the chakra itself. The throat is responsible for conceptual thinking, and because I have not been purified yet, I may experience pain in there, not in the brain. The energy gets somehow stuck in the throat, and doesn't flow to the head? I don't know. The pressure in the brain I know but from meditative experiences leading to the awakening to nonreflecting consciousness.
But thank you for your post. It somehow helped me a lot, just to be understood can be a powerful relief, you know...
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Right, mateusz. That's been my experience as well -- that too much conceptual thinking/writing/reading over-stimulates the throat chakra and, hence, the tissues fed by its energies. My sense is that this blocks the flow of energy through the throat to the brain, leaving brain cells depleted of "subtle energy" (chi, prana, ruah, etc.). I don't think a lack of purity is implied, here, so much as a lack of balance. (If one decides to hop around all day on the right leg instead of walking with both, that right leg will become exhausted and strained.) What I've learned to do when I have a good bit of reading and writing is to take a 10-15 minute break from it every 45 min. or so -- something that doesn't require concentration.
- - -
alariel -- I agree that your comment about priests administering an empty baptism seems out of place, here. I'm a Catholic and we believe that baptism not only by priests, but by any Christian is efficacious, not so much because of the faith and spirituality of the one who baptizes, but because of Christ's promise to receive into his mystical body all who are offered to him in baptism.
[ March 18, 2009, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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Phil just want to say that i was raised catholic, too. However i must say from my own experiences and from those who i have met who surrender fully to christ, that it is essential to let go of "what we think we know of christ and what we believe of him" and let him teach us what this is all about.
I know that this is hard to get for some, but he said that the holy spirit is the teacher and no one (or nothing ) else.
I personally had a hard time surrendering to that truth but jesus repeatedly showed me and told me that if i relly want to know him completly and the truth that he is (which is my deepest desire) i have to let go of religion and what mankind thinks he is and that i have to follow him with an open heart and mind.
mateusz: That statement was over simplified. In 2005 jesus came to me and told me that he will give me the gift of baptizm and that he will lead me to people who are ready. As i found out quickly this was very much for my own growth in him. As i baptized i could feel the love of the holy spirit flowing from me to them, entering them at the heart chakra and starting a change on every level in them (i had the impression that somehow their energeticbody was unfolded?).Most of them had tears in their eyes and where filled with peace and love which they had never known before(and love for jesus). I understood at that time that baptizm is an actual event, something one can feel an experience (real and tangible)and not just a concept.
From that point on he taught me that not every christian is with him, that it is not enough to go to church and read in the bible (even though it is better than to focus on other paths). One must open oneself to him so that he could enter and that makes us part of the body of christ. This does not automatically happen if you read in the bible or go to church. One need to choose that consciously or he will not enter (the law of free will). From that point on i could feel indepentent of my thinking mind if someone is truly with him or not.
There are priest who are channels for the holy spirit, but there are quit a few who have never opened themselves to him and those could not baptize other people, because he is not flowing through them.
so i hope you understand this more..(as my fingers are hurting ;-)
much love alariel (it is also not important to have someone who baptizes you, one just needs to ask jesus from the heart to do it.)
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w.c.
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posted
Alariel:
There may be a relationship between the sacraments and spiritual aridity which is easy to overlook, unless I'm confabulating myself. Aridity would be those periods of time where the Holy Spirit isn't discernible, or so quietly in the background so as not to make a sensory impression, even a subtle one within the auric field; this seems necessary as our consent can have unknown resistances to character transformation even at what the saints would consider an advanced level of sanctification. The sacraments may also function at that level, where even indetectable human yearning for God can be the ground of consent for the work of God's grace in baptism, confirmation, marriage, etc . . . Many people won't register the Holy Spirit's presence consciously, but God doesn't seem to wait upon great, crisis-like surrender to bring one into the Body of Christ, as our deepest yearnings for Him are often unconscious anyway. We can think of this as degrees of sanctification, where seeds are planted sometimes decades before bearing the slightest visible fruit. The harvest may take a lifetime. "The first shall be last, and the last, first."
posted
Alariel I am not a great person for church, was not brought up in the church, and I am more of a hermit. But, being baptized by a Congregational minister when I was 12, mostly because the other kids were doing so, had a profound influence on my life. I did not become a Christian until I was 27. I was in a bit of a tug of war with Christ, I am sorry to say, I found Him hard to find, and harder to follow, and I needed to remind myself that, contrary as I am, I was baptized, and already part of Him.Baptism helped me keep the faith, as it were. It was also very helpful to receive the Eucharist, and I wouldn't have dared if I was not baptized.I have really resonated with your love and surrender to our Lord.
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mateusz
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posted
Alariel, thanks for your explanations. Sure, I understand what you mean, but my views are different, I guess.
whenever I attend a baptism (usually, "ordinary" baptism during a mass in a church) I'm very moved by it. During a baptism of my friend's son I was reminded of a beautiful phrase by Karl Rahner which summarizes the meaning of this sacrament "God loves this baby". There is nothing special or exceptional in "God loves this baby", but when you think that God loves THIS baby, it is really a mystery, something to think about and cry about, perhaps...
During every baptism the Holy Spirit descends into the heart of a human being. It's not an earthquake - but, like it appeared to Elijah on Carmel - a gentle breeze, hardly noticeable... These are my personal musings on the sacrament of baptism, but I experienced also what can be called a baptism of fire and water, and light, when the heavens opened and the flood of light poured down like water through my crown chakra to my heart. Yet, I must say this very strongly, in this extraordinary experience of the Holy Spirit there was nothing MORE than in every baptism. The difference is that you and I, and many others EXPERIENCE in a very powerful and personalized way what is the meaning of baptism. It's like filling something with a content, but it doesn't mean that without content it is empty... I can't explain it... It just becomes alive to us. I'm not a theologian, but I think it's scholastical "opere operato" power of a sacrament, even if not "opere operantis" - even if without personal openness to the sacrament.
I also sort of wonder and am in awe when I think about the Eucharist. When someone takes the host, this person becomes united with God through love and with the whole Church and the saints in heaven. But we hardly "feel" it. I had some experiences that convinced me that in holy communion there is something special going on, but many times nothing happens. Yet I have faith that this sacrament unites me to God in a most real way - even if I don't experience it personally, but the fruits may be present, nevertheless.
Again, I can say that in most ecstatic or contemplative experiences of the prayer of union there is nothing MORE than in every communion taken into the pure heart. After all, not all mystics were saints, and not all saints were mystics.
When my friend was taken aback by some of my contemplative experiences I told him, and I meant it and I still think it is the essence: "God loves me, I love Him back, and I desire to be good - this is really all to say about my experience of contemplation". This is very simple, and many people can do the same without the grace of contemplation! Recently, I'm meditating on the John's account of the Last Supper. Those beautiful words of Jesus that when someone loves Him and fulfills His will, He and the Father will come to this person and will dwell in him/her.
So, Alariel, what do you think about it? Do you agree with any of it?
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alariel wrote: I know that this is hard to get for some, but he said that the holy spirit is the teacher and no one (or nothing ) else.
I personally had a hard time surrendering to that truth but jesus repeatedly showed me and told me that if i relly want to know him completly and the truth that he is (which is my deepest desire) i have to let go of religion and what mankind thinks he is and that i have to follow him with an open heart and mind.
Yes, the Holy Spirit is our teacher, but She works through the Church and other people as well. That's how it's been since Christianity began. I'd really question whether Jesus showed you to let go of religion (the Church, I guess). It's easy to delude oneself in such matters, which is why we need a dogmatic tradition to help us keep our bearings and a community to give us feedback along the way.
[ March 19, 2009, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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Matt: You are right! i just can go into everthing (you know my fingers ;-) It does not have to be like the heavens open up. It can also be quiet and and be unnoticed by the person. I just wanted to say that someone who baptizes must be open to him. I have met a pastor who is not open at all to christ (i somehow can not understand how this could be) but others have felt that too. When he baptizes nothing happens, But!! the person who is baptized is still getting connection to christ because the person wants it (there is no Person needed that baptizes).
I also feel incredibly love and the joy of heavens when someone gets baptized into his body (also at church, but not with every pastor) I have actually felt that the intensity of the baptizm is directet by the person. I mean, that if someone is very open to christ (consciously or unconsciouly) the baptizm will be experienced very strong by the person as more holy spirit energy is flowing to them. If the person is somehow closed the person will experience the baptizm very calmly.
Yes, those words are wonderful and literally true. At the throat chakra we surrender our will to christs will and the more we do this the more of him dwells within us (and that brings us to the father). By the way, thank you so much for the wonderful sharing of your experience with the energy (in the other post). I felt strongly that he is calling you to follow him completly.
Phil: If we encounter someone who says us somehting that we need in order to grow, it is still the holy spirit within ourselves who makes this clear to us. There was a time when this was necessary but as christ makes himself known more cleary, it becomes clear that outer feedback will stop our surrender in him. At a certain level it is about you and him (clearing the throat chakra and the lower chakras through that), giving up everything to know him more deeply. If someone is deeper in him than others (everyone is at a differnt stage)they could not give you feedback, because the lack the experience. They would say that this is not the right way. When one telld mainstream christians about kundalini they often say this is from the devil, because the lack the experience.
Christ is working in a certain way, to free us from the past (see in the bible: book of revelation 21:22). He makes everything new! Christ himself is the church. There is no need for dogma once direct experience is there. The problem with dogma is that it is based on interpretation not direct experience. There is a passage in the bible (but i don't know where maybe in luke?) where Jesus says that the pharizees get there validation from each other, but one should get it only from god.
It takes a great faith and trust in Jesus to do this (which brings us to a so called "egodeath") There must be a willingness to more fully embody the love of jesus and to continually "deny oneself" and loose ones live for the sake of love alone. Giving up the security of the world for the path of god unfolding within us.
So enough for now....
Much love to all of you! alariel
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posted
alariel, it's not so much that I disagree with much of what you say, but that you seem to have made your experience the primary criterion by means of which you evaluate things. So you write, for example: I also feel incredibly love and the joy of heavens when someone gets baptized into his body (also at church, but not with every pastor) I have actually felt that the intensity of the baptizm is directet by the person. I mean, that if someone is very open to christ (consciously or unconsciouly) the baptizm will be experienced very strong by the person as more holy spirit energy is flowing to them. If the person is somehow closed the person will experience the baptizm very calmly. What anyone feels or senses going on with baptism or any sacrament is irrelevant in the sense of efficacy. Same goes for a lot of other experiences in life, where we rely on the promise of God moreso than what we feel and judge. Continuing surrender to Christ is indeed the call we all experience, but even there, we cannot evaluate where we are in our relationship with him on the basis of how we feel and what we experience. I'm convinced that sometimes we are much closer to God when we feel nothing, or even when we suffer.
[ March 20, 2009, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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matt
unregistered
posted
Since that thread is about the "nap" of kundalini, at least, ideally , I'd like to tell you about something that is just about that, and I wonder what you think about that (and Phil and Alariel - you may of course continue your dialogue...)
I had a kundalini awakening right at the beginning of my spiritual journey, when I was practising mantra meditation for two hours a day. I wasn't Christian yet. After few months I had my first crisis, which was basically about that I couldn't be "good" anymore (I was very naive and basically had no knowledge about spirituality back then). For months being good and charitable was easy, but at a certain point I found out that my "bad" part didn't disappear, just went on holidays, and then he came back. You know what I mean, of course.
So it was I guess the most unpleasant about that crisis, but other things were connected to kundalini itself. I started to experience in meditation electrical shocks in my spine, and other disturbing phenomena instead of pleasant flow of energy I used to feel at the beginning.
I tried to deal with that, but many parts of my life became difficult for me and the fact that my meditation wasn't blissful anymore, was really hard to bear. I tried to get some help with that kundalini shocks and stuff, but the only person who I had contact with and who was in a powerful kundalini process, too, couldn't help me, even though I think this person was really willing to. After all, I felt confused and without any help.
So I decided that I will "stop" the process. First I stopped meditation for few days (you might laugh, but for me missing my hours of sitting was the first deadly sin, back then), then I started to sing mantras instead of meditating quietly. I tired all sorts of things. And I noticed that when I sit with my eyes opened and without any concentration, just looking into my mind, the energy was somehow easier to bear. And this is how I found Zen practice. When I learnt that what I did was basically some kind of Zen shikantaza, I went to a retreat.
What is interesting, it seems like Zen really "stopped" kundalini in a way. Of course, not entirely, I still felt energy flowing and some phenomena occurred, but I ignored it all as makyo with such devotion of a new Zen-practitioner, that I guess by ignoring it kundalini sort of withdrew. At least, I didn't experience any upleasant things.
When I read my diaries, I see that kundalini was working (pressures in the head etc.), but somehow I ignored it and pretended I'm going on without it. I wonder if it is really possible to affect the process in that way. After my Zen kensho energy seemed to disappear totally, which is also kind of intriguing, and during an aridity period of no-self experience it was hardly noticeable.
Yet since this December, when I gave up Zen, finally chose Jesus and surrendered to infused contemplation, kundalini came back with great force. So two things seem to be interesting here: (1) Zen affects kundalini process (2) contemplative or devotional prayer seems to be quite at home with kundalini (or it's just individual feature of a person)
Now, when I wrote this I start to wonder if my kundalini really took a nap, or it's just my sense of it, because I start to remember many K experiences during my Zen times... After all, if you have anything to comment on or you wanna share your experiences with such "on and off's" - I'd gladly hear them
Btw, I never experienced a negative effects from kundalini, when I chose to ignore it - usually, it's on the contrary, if you try to stop it, you suffer.
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The last days have been very energetically intense, with lots of energy in the head and lots of integration goin on.
My answer to your reply has two parts :-) :
1. It is so important to trust what we feel and not let the mind kick in. The more we trust what we feel the faster the surrender goes. I have no other way to "make something real for me" than what i feel. Feeling is the way to intuition, and through intuition we learn to read christs guidance. This feeling comes through the 2. Chakra which carries feminin energy. Christ teaches us that we need to trust our gut feelings instead of relying on the mind, in this way we learn the difference of deception and thruth (for us). The mind can only grasp the surface, intuition the deeper parts of ourselves.
If we are to fully accept ourselves we need to accept what we feel (the first step to understanding unconditional love). There is nothing wrong with it! if we rely on thoughts for understanding we can think and think, and believe and think, and believe and ... (thinking never finds and end) Before we reach certain integration with christ we try to figure things out trough a thougth process (which is maskulin energy; doing). But in christ we get information directly through our intuitiv senses and then "assimilate" that into the feeling body. What we feel as right for us will change, depending on what "level" of integration with christ we are.
The key to living in the world while embodying Christ is to honor the way we feel. If we feel uncomfortable in a situation, then something is not right. If we remain, without leaving or speaking up to change the energy, we are allowing the world to control us. This can be very subtle, because the outward appearance can seem harmless and we may be the only ones who are uncomfortable. It always comes down to following the way we feel. Christ within us will be our guide, energetically directing us, requiring us to become more sensitive and aware in order to move into greater Christ embodiment.
having said that, brings me to the second part of my answer:
The things i have felt (which i described in my former posts)... came not from me. When we reach a certain depth of integration with christ he builds a christ body which becomes slowly integrated into the etheric and physical bodies. This body operates (is that the word? ;-) on its own, idepentent of the mind and the human feelings. What begins as intuition (and trusting our gut feelings; 2. chakra) becomes a real way of perceiving things (one perceives the human level and the deeper level simultaniously)and this christ body clearly shows if there are energies that are not pure or if something is pure. Through it we can perceive the things behind the surface. Things can look pretty well on the surface, but the christ body shows that behind the surface things are quite different. One can not perceive this things without the christ body. I have met people who completly surrendered to christ and they told me about that, but i could not really get it until i started to experience that for myself.
I agree with much of what you write above, but there are parts that, to me, are clearly "problemmatic." But, for sure, to accept oneself as a feeling person, to listen to one's feelings, to take them seriously, to learn from them, etc. - we are on the same page. Same with the importance of surrendering completely to Christ and the guidance we receive.
I'm not sure we'll get anywhere with our disagreements, however, as they're based not simply on experience, but on differing metaphysical assumptions, different Christologies, and different ecclesiologies. These all do come into play in our manner of experiencing and understanding how the Spirit works in our lives. E.g., intuition also feeds the intellect, which is our primary faculty for comprehending truth (not feeling). Feeling tells us if something is agreeable to us or not -- very important information -- but that's not the best way to get at the truth of a thing. Intuitive intelligence is not a matter of "thinking, thinking, thinking" (deductive reasoning) but an inner listening similar to intuitive feeling. The Spirit moves through all 7 chakras, not just the 2nd, and we can receive some manner of guidance through them all.
My sense is that you have a lot of valuable experience to share on this forum, and I don't want to frustrate you with argumentation. I'm interested in hearing more about your spiritual journey, especially who your teachers have been and what books you've found influential.
Peace, Phil
[ March 24, 2009, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
matt, thanks for sharing your experience of how Zen affected your experiences of energy. My own is somewhat the opposite -- that Zen meditation activated the energy and left it with little grounding. In fact, it was only after making an 8-day Zen retreat and then giving up on that kind of meditation afterwards, returning to Christian prayer, that I saw how kundalini was a process that facilitated full embodiment of contemplative union between God and self. Iow, it seems that kundalini integration is optimized by a relational mysticism of the sort that Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some branches of Hinduism facilitate.
It could be that the non-relational, non-dual emphasis of Zen stymied the k process (although those pressures in the head you mention sound very familiar). The energy simply has nowhere to go, as Zen doesn't seem especially interested in embodying spiritual consciousness. Maybe I'm judging Zen too harshly, here, but my experience of it and from the reading I've done, it's seemed to emphasize spiritual consciousness without much consideration of the body.
Just a few thoughts that might have relevance to what you shared.
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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I am guessing by your sharing that you have been influenced by the work of Solomae. I was once quite involved in her teachings and benefitted much from many of her insights. However, I came to realize there is much deception tangled up in that whole system of thought. Most notably is the issue of diserning energies and how one's "Christ Body" is reacting as a way to determine truth.
Like you and the others here at SP, I am quite energy sensitive and often 'see/feel' into the spiritual/supernatural world. So I can relate to your conviction that you believe you can see who belongs to Christ, that Jesus told you to give up religion, etc.
In my experience, however, I learned that the problem with relying on this kind of feeling-with-your-"Christ Body"-knowledge and not needing anyone or anything to confirm or support your revelations is really foolhearty. It can lead to a complex delusional system. Sure, one cannot learn anything about kundalini from somebody who believes it's from the devil, but they may still be able to teach you a whole lot about one's areas of immaturity. One's 'level of integration' in Christ or the sanctification process seems to more complex than whether or not they have had your same experiences (the recent sharing my Matt on the other thread supports this).
After all, we are fallen creatures subject to our own wishes, fears, and fantasies. In addition, there are supernatural forces outside ourselves who FEEL loving (a kind of supernatural love that insulates us with grandiosity) and present themselves as Jesus. There have been many appearances of Jesus to a whole bunch of super-energy sensitive folks who have "gone off the deep end," in my opinion. Some of these people enjoy ecstatic states infused with love for all mankind, gushing heart chakra openings, etc. and still lack some basic understanding, intelligence, and wisdom.
The good news, as you state, is that a continual surrender to Christ will bring about more and more purification, and with it, clarity about what we do know and what we don't understand. At the same time, we cannot ever be perfect barometers of what the Holy Spirit is doing (as w.c. mentions above), no matter how energy-sensitive and surrendered we are at any given moment.
peace to you, Shasha
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bdb
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I agree with all you wrote, Shasha.And although I haven't noticed poetry on SP, I'd like to share this poem by Symeon the Theologian (949-1022), translated by Stephen Mitchell.One of my contemplative prayer groups often starts with this, and it reminds me of the areas where I do agree with Alariel.You guys probably know it, it gives me pleasure to type it out, though.
We awaken in Christ's body as Christ awakens our bodies. And my poor hand is Christ, He enters my foot, and is infinitely me. I move my hand, and wonderfully my hand becomes Christ, becomes all of Him (for our God is indivisibly whole, seamless in His Godhood). I move my foot, and at once He appears like a flash of lightening. Do my words seem blasphemous?Then open your heart to Him, and let yourself receive the One who is opening to you so deeply. For if we genuinely love Him, we wake up inside Christ's body where all our body, all over, every most hidden part of it, is realized in joy in Him, and He makes us utterly real, and everything that is hurt,everything that seemed to us dark,harsh,shameful, maimed,ugly,irreparably damaged, is in Him transformed and recognized as whole, as lovely, and radiant in His Light, we awaken as the Beloved in every last part of our body.
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bdb:
That's lovely. The trouble for me is how that may be, in a saint, a genuinely grounded state of being; whereas in somebody, more like myself, often looking for an experience to ease psychological pain, a kind of spiritualized form of dissociation.
And so I'm left wondering as to the relationship between these deep mystical experiences and everyday virtue. There are so many stories of how people discover, with great embarrassment and sorrow, the shallowness of their moral development right after a long retreat or cloister where the heavenly realms have opened up to them.
I'm not married, but boy . . . marriage would be the litmus test for all of this, or at least a close community where folks know your sh. . . stinks just like theirs! I'd imagine Jesus' disciples, who seemed increasingly uncomfortable with themselves the more they were around Him, wouldn't have given much importance to anything that didn't place genuine virture/maturity at the top of the list; for anything else gets seen through as a sham. And it doesn't take God in the flesh to notice when the false self has rediscovered itself via kundalini-driven addictive "spirituality." I'm guilty as charged, and at least somewhat relieved to know it.
posted
Yes, yes, different for all of us,but our sensitivity which makes us more susceptible to the HS,imo, also subjects me to toxic shame (I had quite a bout over my post to Arariel, still not sure, add excruciating self-doubt to the mix) and hypervigilantism, which don't help me see myself well, my patterns of behaviour, but get used by the FS to create more obstructionism (is that a word?) I love what Shasha wrote, which I remember loosely as to just keep surrendering and staying open with whatever practice we have.What monk said,we rise up,we fall down,we rise up...and also,I have to remember Julian of Norwich's all will be well,and all manner of thing will be well.I am married and live in an intentional community, and I assure you, I can deflect the truth of my behaviour pretty darn well:(.And still, my life since I became a Christian just gets better,less anxious,less driven...more moments of gratitude,and self-offering and wonder.
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Yes, lovely poem, bdb. And thanks for the reflection on it, w.c. Marriage is indeed an ongoing test of one's spirituality -- and a joy when both partners are committed to loving one another.
Here's the nuance I'd make about Christ's body and ours. It's great good news that we become grafted into his Body, which becomes, then, the source of our new life in the Spirit. The theotic process, however, is much more about how His life become ours, along the lines Paul talks about in Rm. 12: 1-3.
quote:1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
So we do not look to another mind to discover God's will, but we find the answers in our own transformed minds. We've been "re-wired," as it were, but in such manner that our native faculties and subjective essence remain intact. I think that's what St. Symeon is talking about -- how his body has been renewed to such an extent that it has become a "cell" in the mystical body of Christ.
[ March 26, 2009, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Phil ]
-------------------- "The Light shines on in darkness . . ." - John 1: 3 - Posts: 7539 | From: Wichita, KS | Registered: Aug 2001
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An intentional community is probably what I need.
What occurs to me as I read your post is how childhood attachment impairment can lead to such shame. Not sure of your background bdb, and this thread probably isn't the place for it, but in watching my friends parent their kids, it is astonishing how shame replaces wounds that cannot be openings to further being known and understood in the midst of loss. The poorly attached child is alone with a sense of basic disconnection, plus whatever the recent pain happens to be, and blames herself for all of this as she hasn't had the kind of enduring connections to emerge from her infantile narcissism (I don't think infants and toddlers are narcissistic in the way adults can be, but it is a partially informed expression of having to let go of entitlement that is appropriate for the first 10 months of life). To emerge from that and not have shame be the primary emotional response, we need to have the empathetic responses that abide our grief at losing childhood entitlements, which is a painful grieving process for every kid. To become a real self, this grieving must happen. So feeling understood, having boundaries gently and firmly put in place by the parent so the child's energy cannot manipulate others, sets the stage for letting go into increasing self-other intimacy. I see my friends kids actually emerge as more whole human beings as they have these moments. They are so blessed, as I know the pain they would be left with otherwise.
Sorry for the tangent, but I think it may bear upon the thread in some ways.
. Shalom Place
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