Re: prayer and consciousness

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: Johnboy, : Thank you for responding to my post and for the Wilberish Posting. I made a copy of it and plan to do my best to read it. : I haven't heard much of such language since I : attended phenomenological symposiums many years ago. When I try to read your posts, I am reminded of how much I enjoyed sitting there (seriously) trying to understand what to make of all of it. Fun and challenging, too! : : Johnboy wrote: : : I have always applauded personality theories (typing) and developmental psychology and formative spirituality approaches, in general, for the fact that they sensitize us to the reality that people see and respond to the world differently -at home, at school, at work, at play, at worship. At the same time, I resist the casual application of those theories, in particular, for we can then lose sight of how wonderfully complex we are and how labeling processes can get people, in a word, stuck. : : Yes, labeling can be very reductionistic. It can detract and lead us away from seeing each human being as an ultimate mystery. : : Johnboy: : Developmental psychology and formative spirituality instruct us as to what might be encountered on the journey, remind us that others have been in similar places; at the same time, I believe they have very little value for predicting or mapping our journeys. : I agree that each journey is unique. However, I tend to think an overall general map can be a useful tool, if it remains as such, merely a tool : albeit a somewhat vague one. : I have studied formative spirituality. I think : good formative spirituality continually leads us back and into an awareness of the Mystery and the Mystery of us. : In other words, our lives should not be formed to : meet the maps designated by others. A map can be useful to an extent, in some instances. It is when the map becomes the way and reality is expected to conform to the map that great problems arise. : johnboy: : I would even deemphasize, in addition to not speculating on where we may be specifically headed, speculating on precisely where we or anyone else happens to be at the moment. I hope I said this intelligibly. : I understand. Very intelligible. Thanks. : I think speculating on where we are headed is important. Otherwise, why take the risks involved in the journey? If the state of consciousness known as the "kingdom of heaven" is our goal, then why not say it? : As for where we are, I think it's often impossible to really know where we are until we have moved along. I think we can hamper our own journey with self-labeling. However, on the other hand, a bit of understanding of where we think we are or where we think the other might be can greatly assuage situations of conflict. : For example, if I have an intimation that a person I am attempting to dialogue with is stuck in a mythic consciousness, then that gives me a clue as to how to proceed with the dialogue. It can also help one to understand the entire situation better and work on developing a sense of compassion for oneself and for others. : johnboy: : : You precisely are in touch with the very ideas I am grappling with. I am unable to get in extra reading presently and can not compose anything further on this topic (much less bother to take the time to skillfully translate it for general consumption --which is something I do value and recognize and affirm, for instance, as a gift that Phil has). I do have a musing that was influenced by my exposure to Wilber and to Jack Haught which I will share in its raw form that may further stimulate your own thoughts. Phil introduced me to Haught about 20 years ago (literally at lunch) and I have never gotten his ideas out of my bones. Wilber is really good, too, and almost as far out as me. : Thank you for your thoughtfulness johnboy. : I was recently reminded that there can be a significant difference in people who are evolved intellectually and people who are evolved : in states of consciousness. One just needs to look at the occupations of the disciples to see evidence of this. I am very interested in the evolution of consciousness. If you ever do have the time or the inclination, I'd enjoy attempting : to follow through on this thread with you. : Thank you for your kindness. I enjoy your posts. : Sincerely, : Diana

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